“Like Batman and Robin”

Rich Meagher: Hey, Rich here. Before we get into this episode, I want to tell a quick story. Once upon a time, I pitched VPN with this idea to host my own podcast. And now here I am talking with the movers and shakers about the biggest issues in Richmond and the region. Recently, though, I started to wonder about you, the listener. I’d like to know what you think about the show. Are we on the right track? Is there something you’d like to hear more of or less of? The team and I have created a brief survey, and I’d appreciate your taking just a few minutes to fill it out. You’ll find the survey on our website, rvasgotissues. vpm. org. And if you do fill it out, you’ll get an invite to meet me and the team. Okay. Enough of that. Thanks for listening. Back to the show.

 

Rich Meagher: On this episode, RVA’s got issues with Richmond City Council. Elections for all nine council seats are here, but what is it like to serve? We’ll bring together two different city council presidents who didn’t always see eye to eye, and we have them both talking to each other. This week, RVA’s got questions about who runs for city council. With only six of nine seats having a competitive race, Why aren’t more people trying to grab a spot? And for our community spotlight, we’ll talk with a man who goes door to door talking to people about politics. He calls himself the Happy Canvasser. We’ll ask, why is he so happy? All that coming up on RVA’s Got Issues.

 

Rich Meagher: The Richmond City Council is the lawmaking body for the city, and all seats are up for election this November. But what are Richmonders voting for, anyway? What is the job of a City Council member actually like? We’ve got two people in the studio today who did run for council, did win their election, and spent about six years working together. Kristen Nye returns to RVA’s Got Issues. She’s the current council president and representative for the city’s fourth district, finishing up her second and last term on the council. Welcome, Kristen. Good

Council President Kristen Nye: Thank you. Good to see you.

Rich Meagher: You. And she is joined by delegate Mike Jones, currently representative to the state legislature for Virginia’s 77th district. But for 7 years, he was the council representative for Richmond’s 9th district. Welcome Mike.

Del. Mike Jones: Thanks for having me.

Rich Meagher: So, you both represented, or, represent now, very different parts of Richmond. Mike, you’re a pastor from the South Side. You represented the South central district, more black residents, historically underinvested. Uh, Kristen, you come from the school board side of things. You represented the Southwest district, the fourth, so the South side, but former Chesterfield County, a little wealthier, a little whiter. Um, we’ll, we’ll get into how it went in a minute, but in the beginning, what did you want to accomplish? Kristen, what were you trying to do on city council? It

Council President Kristen Nye: was school board has no control over funding. Um, there’s no taxing authority like there is in other states. And so while I was on school board, city council was not super generous with funding schools. So, um, the council person who had been representing the fourth district for a long time stepped back and I saw it as an opportunity to get in that seat and advocate more for schools

Rich Meagher: And Mike, did you have a similar kind of frustration?

Del. Mike Jones: No, my, my, arc is a little different. Um, my church, we were feeding at Monroe park every weekend, along with a lot of different people, people who are experiencing, uh, homelessness and things of that nature. And so the city came up with. A license fee that any group would have to pay, uh, before they fed. And I just thought there was something just wrong with that. So we showed up with about 50 of my church members, uh, to a city council meeting and we don’t have a fee. Yes, we do. There is not a fee and, you know, people from the administration, well, Hey, there is a fee, but you don’t have to worry about paying it. That’s why I ran. I’m like, they are in that much disarray and we’re just simply trying to help people that are hungry.

Rich Meagher: So let’s talk about your two’s dynamic on counsel. I mean, what did, what did you make of each other in the beginning? Like, Mike, what did you think of Chris then when you

Del. Mike Jones: well, we learned a, we, we, we, we, we kind of hung out on a bus ride. It was that, that original bus trip that we took, uh, right out, right outside my house, right outside my street and we had this,delusion of grandeur that, you know, this vision that, Hey, we’re gonna take over council because that, that was our, that was our original intent. We got a block of four. Yeah. All we need is one person. We’re going to run this city. And then things kind of run this city. right before our eyes. I’m like, no. Um, but, but you know, I, I respect everyone for representing their district. I can’t blame Andrea’s for representing the fluent first district or Kristen representing the fourth or Kim gray at that time, Reverend, then the second, they have their political math. Um, and so I had to. Kind of my second term back off some of my rhetoric because I was just pissed half the time, and I don’t know how well people heard me because it was just this, this roar versus Hey, there’s another way to get at this.

 get it,

Rich Meagher: got it.

Council President Kristen Nye: of view on that relationship? Yeah, I mean, specifically with Mike, yes, we came in guns blazing. We’re like, we’re the new four. And then, you know, I don’t even know the first issue that broke up the gang. it was a lot. you know, Mayor Stoney was also new and had a lot of energy and was bringing forward a, you know, he brought forward a meals tax increase, you know, a lot of things happened during that time. That we were forced to address and forced to push back against. And so that creates a different dynamic on council too, because the mayor’s lobbying council members and then we’re lobbying each other. And it’s a, it’s a lot of phone calls.

Rich Meagher: a specific example of this, you’re talking about that first, uh, Mayor Stoney term was the Navy Hill development plan. This included office space and a hotel and affordable housing and a whole bunch of stuff, but it was mainly this arena and would use a lot of taxpayer dollars to help build this new downtown arena. Now, Mike,

Del. Mike Jones: you were a yes on this proposal, right? And, and, and what did you see happening to this proposal?I thought we would get there. I really did. And I thought there was, in my opinion, I think if it happened. While we were in leadership, I think it would have gone differently.

Council President Kristen Nye: I agree. I

Del. Mike Jones: just do, And now we have a hole in the center of our city, right? Uh, this dilapidated building, but I think there was a way to work to yes. Versus advocates and everyone else that had their own agendas,

Rich Meagher: But Kristen, you were a no on this, right?

Council President Kristen Nye: Yeah. I had a lot of concerns and I think. Uh, you know, Mike’s kind of alluding to this too, the process was broken from day one. Um, to me as a council person who had to vote on this. It felt like a kind of a smackdown, like a little bit of let’s bring Kristen in a room and bring in a lot of powerful people and tell her, you know, how great this is and how she’s going to destroy the city if she doesn’t approve this. Um, and that’s not a great way to lobby people.  the financing were really concerned to me, um, which is really why I landed where I did and, Mike also mentioned that, you know, if we were in leadership, he feels like it would have been different. He and I were in leadership last year together as president and vice president, he was president of council, I was vice. And we really started to work collaboratively with the administration. On making sure when they were bringing things forward to counsel that There was just transparency and collaboration and just sort of a different vibe. One of the things I wanted to ask though, is about your relationship during that time, because I was wondering if, you know, Navy Hill, you’re a yes. Mike, Kristen, you’re a no. Does that lead to any sort of problem and trust there or a problem with that relationship that has to be repaired?

Rich Meagher: Or is it more about the process that you went through and a recognition, like, I understand why you’re in a different place than what I am.

Del. Mike Jones: I would still say this. I think if it was introduced right now, if the mayor brought it through and I think it would have went through. I think it would have happened because the, the, the, the, the respect and how we received and heard each other would have happened differently. my issue was the fact that look, we’re giving certain people tax breaks, but we’re not giving them over here. And a lot of my angst was that. Is, is really, really sophomoric, is really juvenile. This isn’t fair. My big brother gets to do this, why don’t I get to do it? And so that was a lot of my roar early on was, Man, hey, we’re being treated unfairly. We’re being overlooked because other parts of the city are fine. If the Diamond District didn’t go through. The second district third, they’re fine. They’re going to be okay, but there are parts of our, our city that we need economic development to survive, not to just ease the burden of taxes, but to get through. We need to make it happen.

Rich Meagher: So how was the Diamond District, say this recent development, a different kind of process from the Navy Hill development even a few years earlier?

Council President Kristen Nye: So I think the administration was very intentional in bringing along council members from the beginning with the diamond district project, but they weren’t, they did not follow that process for Navy Hill. And that made a huge difference in getting us to a yes, because we were at the table in the discussions, information was shared with us from the beginning with the diamond district, but with Navy Hill. It all happened behind closed doors. It was very limited in the information that we received And then we were only getting sort of the rah rah pep talk information. We weren’t getting the detailed information, and we didn’t know how we got from beginning to end, whereas with the Diamond District,

[ BRING IN GHOST IN THE TAPEHEAD 30 SEC RIGHT AS SHE SAYS “WE WERE THERE”; NO PAUSE]

Council President Kristen Nye: we were there from beginning to end. And so we understood. The whole process, which I think helped us get to a yes,

[ MUSIC IN CLEAR 4-5 SEC FOR BREATHING ROOM, SLOW FADE AFTER RICH’S VO COMES IN]

Rich Meagher: So then you did both end up in leadership together, right? Um, Mike, you were the president and, and Kristen, you were the vice president under, under him. What, what did you learn about each other and about city council, about what it takes to work together to accomplish goals?

Del. Mike Jones: Like Batman and Robin. We worked well together on other.

Council President Kristen Nye: Uh, uh, uh, uh,

Del. Mike Jones: On other committees, we

Rich Meagher: should ask who’s Batman and

Council President Kristen Nye: gonna ask that also. I’m the Batman. Pun intended. Right?

Del. Mike Jones: right? But, but, but, but, but, but we worked well because if you look at it, Robin was really outside of Batman’s money, right? And he had the suit. Robin made things go you know, we, we, we, we worked well from the standpoint of, look, I’m going to demand respect, the, Administration, they will respect councils like never before. You’re not coming in and taking up all of our time and we’re here until midnight and y’all are at home watching this on PBS, right? You’re not doing that to us. When you come, you will present 10 minutes, five minutes of questions, and we’re moving on. I would recommend that you meet with people before. And so there was just some principle things that I’m going to bring structure. And then in that structure, Kristen. Do what you do best, ask a hell of a lot of questions and ruffle feathers and they’re going to have to deal with it and they’ll be okay. And they were. And so we worked well together because then they figured out they’d much rather deal with Kristen than deal with me. And so, and so that was a cool dynamic. it was really positive and it kind of came together organically. And I also think because, you know, our getting things passed and moving legislation and the budget forward is all about those five votes. And about the dynamics on council, right? So I think collectively, Mike and I had relationships with everybody on council.

Rich Meagher: We’re talking with talking with outgoing Richmond

Rich Meagher: do a better job of supporting Council staff. On RVA’s got issues. 

 

Rich Meagher: This is RVA’s Got Issues. We’re talking about the Richmond City Council, which has seats up for election this fall, with current Council President Kristen Nye and former Council President Mike Jones. It sounds like part of the learning curve you are talking about of being in counsel, particularly for more than one term, is trying to figure out how to build a relationship with the mayor’s office. So, so Kristen, how did you do that? Building a relationship with the mayor, with the administration in general?

Council President Kristen Nye: Um, so for me, I think when I first got on council, there was a little bit of, if I got frustrated with them, I’d avoid them. I have since changed and I do really try to call them if I have an issue with what’s going on. And I, I feel like leaning into it is better than being mad and sitting in the corner steaming by myself. And honestly, I try to do that with my colleagues as well. I mean, this is not for the faint of heart. This is, uh, uh, A role where you get frustrated, you think that whatever legislation you are bringing forward is the best thing ever. You think it’s great for your district, you think it’s great for the city, and then somebody kills it and everybody jumps on board or, you know, residents come down and speak against it, and it can tear you apart. But you just have to keep your eye on it. On the ball and keep moving forward and move on to the next thing and, you know, sometimes circle back. candidates, you know, if you’re listening, just be prepared for disappointment and find a way to deal with it.

Rich Meagher: So besides the, the be prepared for disappointment, uh, part of it, like, what is your advice? Both of you to new members about, well, first of all, again, like building a good relationship with a new mayor, right? We’ll definitely have a new mayor and a new administration. I mean, Mike, what would be your kind of recommendation for folks coming in new to the council?

Del. Mike Jones: the one thing I don’t believe in, I just have an issue with tearing down another elected official for teardown sake. And then I’ll say the quiet part out loud, I’m not going to attack an African American leader personally. publicly. That is, I wasn’t gonna attack Wilder Jones. I wasn’t gonna attack LeVar. there’s a certain amount of respect that, that he’s going to get from me just because of the shared you know, experiences that we’ve had. Um, not that we, I mean, LeVar and I, we got into a behind scene. We sort of did, um, we sort of did, um, and but the one thing I’ve always said,

Council President Kristen Nye: don’t take it personal. and then don’t make it personal. Just don’t. I think that’s that’s what we did. That’s what we did the first four years. Um, and once I learned to stop taking it and making it, then I learned how to kind of just maneuver through all of it.

Del. Mike Jones: And start getting the things that I need done completed. The monuments, right? My first bill was, hey, can we just get the authority to take them down? And it took three times, three attempts. And that was very personal, right? On the death of, after the death of Heather Hire is when I first brought it in. Introduced it, it failed, and the administration came up with a commission, and I learned that commissions are just ways to create cover for politicians and things of that nature, but it was still necessary to include the public, uh, the public voice, but again, I took it personal. I was pissed at folk. I’m like, I mean, how dare y’all? Um, but then after that, it’s like, okay, Let me, let me lobby the General Assembly. Let’s get the authority and let’s just start playing politics now.

Rich Meagher: work. You need to talk to everybody. And we really tried to connect. And I think

Council President Kristen Nye: So I think one thing you have to continue to keep perspective on is. You are representing a certain district, so you have to continue to be present in your district. Go, it’s not glamorous, but going to neighborhood meetings and meeting with the 20, the 30, sometimes the 10 people that show up to the neighborhood meetings, answering people’s calls, responding to people when they grab you in the grocery store, even if you only have five minutes to grab milk and bread. You still need to, you know, at least interact with them. So, So, The people that got you to that office are the people that will keep you in that office if that’s what you want to do. So I really think as candidates are looking at this, they have to remember, you know, their own call all the time. And I’m a person that really values, you know, life work balance. However, in this position, you are a public figure and you do really need to remember Your constituents who got you into office and just continue to keep those lines of communication open.

Del. Mike Jones: Chris

Council President Kristen Nye: of the Richmond City Council.

Rich Meagher: Mike Jones is a former City Council President and current State Delegate. Mike, Kristen, thanks so much for joining us.

Del. Mike Jones: us. Thanks for having us.

Council President Kristen Nye: Thanks, Rich.

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Rich Meagher: On each episode of RVA’s Got Issues, we’ll answer a question from listeners like you, something you want or need to know about your government or community. Today, RVA’s Got Questions about running for Richmond City Council. As usual, our producer, Amber Coles joins us. Hi

Amber Coles: Hey, Rich. So,

Rich Meagher: So Amber, you’ve got our listener

Amber Coles: question? I do. Our question this week comes from Marcius L. in Richmond, and he writes, With only six of the nine city council seats being contested in RVA this year, it had me wondering, Why?

Are the candidates in office doing a great job so no one challenges them? Or, is there a lack of choice because people don’t want to run in our political climate? Put simply, why don’t more people run for

Rich Meagher: more people run for city

Amber Coles: You know, I too wondered the same thing every once in a while. Marcaius, thank you for this question.

Rich Meagher: every once in a while. Marcaius, for this question. I’m a spider man. 

Amber Coles: I’m a sore loser. So if I don’t win, I’m, I’m going to be upset.

Rich Meagher: Okay, well that’s a good, I think a good reason not to do so

Amber Coles: Now, originally, Mar Kayas, uh, when he emailed us this question, uh, he thought only two of the nine seats were gonna be competitive because Andreas is leaving and Kristen are leaving. So, you know, seats that are up for grabs because they’re empty, but he’s a little more encouraged because he found out there are six of nine. So there’s four extra seats that are gonna be, um, contested. And so, you know, choice. Choice is great. I like options.

Rich Meagher: yes, right. And so maybe, maybe, I mean, I’m glad Marques was feeling a little better after he emailed us because I think people should feel a little bit better, right? Maybe you want every seat to be competitive and contested, but six of nine is actually pretty good compared to the national level where 90 percent of Congress members are returned. But I mean, in general, I think there are probably a few reasons why people don’t run for office. And I’d say, here in in Richmond City Council, there’s three big obstacles. The first biggest one is that the City Council job is part time pay for full time work. Current salary, do you know what it might be?

Amber Coles: I didn’t know they got paid. I’m going to be very

Rich Meagher: Yeah.

Amber Coles: I thought it was one of those kind of like

Rich Meagher: Volunteer gigs?

Amber Coles: type of positions, if so to speak.

Rich Meagher: well, I mean, they do actually get a stipend and get a salary of 25, 000. So that’s like a part time salary that you can’t do full time. So technically it’s a part time job, right? You only have to go to a couple of meetings a month, right? That’s it. It’s like, Why would you have to get paid anymore? You have to prep for those meetings. You’ve got the, you know, constituent calls. You’ve got the civic association meetings. You’ve got the ribbon cutting. Emails you have to answer, you’ve got ribbon cutting, like all that stuff just piles up. So it really is a full time job, Now City Council just voted this year to double this pay, so almost double it, from 25, 000 to 45, 000 a year.

Amber Coles: So it seems like the Council voted to give themselves a raise, but there’s a reason for

Rich Meagher: exactly, right? So, and it doesn’t take effect until after the next election. But the idea is that because the pay is so low, a lot of people might not run. Right? So if you want to encourage people to run, encourage more participation, you bump the pay up a little bit. It makes it more feasible for some people, right? They don’t have to be a retiree or have their own business or something. They could actually do this for a job if it’s a little closer to a real

Amber Coles: Okay, so that makes me feel better about that.

Rich Meagher: Yeah. Now the second obstacle though, also relates to money. And that is raising money for a campaign. I cannot stand asking people for money, but you run for office. You got to ask everybody, you know, to give you money.

Amber Coles: If you’re an introvert, this is not gonna go well for you. Yeah. You will need an advocate for you to ask for the funds. Yes.

Rich Meagher: So that your, your family members don’t run away from you and friends because you’re constantly asking them for money. And, and then the third real challenge, I think, is that you’ve got some people in office who’ve been in office a long time. We call them incumbents, right? And incumbents can get really entrenched. And here in the city of Richmond, you’ve got folks like Reva Trammell and Ellen Robertson, who’ve been there a really long time. Now, whatever you think about the job they’re doing, it’s really tough. It’s just hard to beat someone when they’ve been in office, they know how to win, they know how to run, they know the people in their district. And so I think that’s true at all levels of government.

Amber Coles: Now, originally, Mar Kayas, uh, when he emailed us this question, uh, he thought only two of the nine seats were gonna be competitive because Andreas is leaving and Kristen are leaving. So, you know, seats that are up for grabs because they’re empty, but he’s a little more encouraged because he found out there are six of nine.

Rich Meagher: So there’s four extra seats that are gonna be, um, contested.yes, right. And so maybe, maybe, I mean, I’m glad Marques was feeling a little better after he emailed us because I think people should feel a little bit better, right? Maybe you want every seat to be competitive and contested, but six of nine is actually pretty good compared to the national level where 90 percent of Congress members are returned. So all those folks may not win, but at least people having choice is a good thing. Now, Amber, what if listeners want to ask us a question about something else, or about how to run for office, I guess?

Amber Coles: If you want to run for office or if you have a question, actually go to our website, rvasgotissues. vpm. org and click on that wonderful ask a question button. And one of your questions could be featured on the show.

Rich Meagher: For sure. Thanks, Amber.

Amber Coles: Thanks, Rich

 

Rich Meagher: some people, including me, the worst thing you can imagine is knocking on a stranger’s door. Okay. To ask them for something, but going to door to door is still an important part of political campaigns, even with all the new data and technology we’ve developed.

That’s called canvassing, and we’ve got a veteran here for our community spotlight. His name is Don Pulaski, and he thinks that canvassing can help make people feel better about politics. Welcome, Don.

Don: It’s good to be here, Rich.

Rich Meagher: I mean, we should say I have known you for years. We teach together at Randolph Macon. You’re a professor of religious studies, which isn’t necessarily what people would think of as needing the requirements for a canvasser. So, you I did some political issue canvassing years ago, and I thought I would

Don: thought I

Rich Meagher: How do you do this?

Don: Oh, well,for me,

Rich Meagher: it’s,

Don: was a way to stop being anxious about elections. This is back 2012 into 2016. I’d like to Um, instead of just sitting, listening, listening from the next pole, I was like, I gotta get out and do something. but yeah, I know it’s not for everybody, but um, you can, you can master, master the anxiety.

Rich Meagher: So you have apparently mastered the anxiety. You call yourself sometimes on, on social media, the happy canvasser. Okay. TM. And so before we get to the happy part, let’s just start with the canvasser. Let’s say this weekend, you’re going canvassing for a candidate that you like. How does it work? Like, can you walk us through the mechanics of

Don: Well, I’m going to the beach this weekend, but if I were gonna be there on Saturday, I would, um, you, you, you go to the place where you’re supposed to meet.

The organizer and you’re given a packet of literature, and you get access to the turf. Um,that’s what we call the neighborhood that we walk and it gives you the list of doors you’re supposed to knock and, you, then you go to that location and you just decide what order to take the doors in and you go knock the doors and it automatically records the responses and when you’re done, you’re done.

Rich Meagher: what do you say? You knock on the door, what are you trying to get them to say to you?

Don: Well, you have a script that’s on the phone and you look at it a little bit, to see what the candidates are really wanting to say. But generally it’s, hi. So, so there, hi, my name is Don and I’m a volunteer to that, to that, to that, to that, um, and you can, you can start by saying here to support. The candidates for the party. Um, we’re interested in what issues you’re concerned about today. what do you, what would you want me to tell the campaign? You do that because we actually do want to know. to see what’s really, people are really interested in. And then that can lead to, well, you know, let me tell you a little bit about our candidates. basically we have two rhetorical goals. We want to have that discussion, see what people are thinking, see if we need to move them along. And then see if they’re ready to actually say they’re gonna be voting for someone.

Rich Meagher: Well, there’s not a whole lot you

Don: well, there’s not a whole lot you can do. I mean.

Rich Meagher: Um, I just

Don: my ankle, help me, um, you know, that’s always a good

Rich Meagher: I

Don: then you get inside the house, you go, Hey, you know,

Rich Meagher: go,

Don: speaking of healthcare, um, but it’s, um,

Rich Meagher: um, the

Don: one thing. At least I am, is you have to be almost fearlessly polite. That is, you can’t, if someone doesn’t want to talk, they ain’t going to talk. And there’s nothing you can do to make them talk to you. So if they don’t want to talk, you talk as much as you’re able to. And then you say, well, it’s good to talk to you. See you in November. And,and you’re out of there.

Rich Meagher: and, um, is clearly worth it, you

Don: I think for, you know, I think for democracy and for my state of anxiety, Um, it helps because you’re talking, you’re doing, and in general, that’s something we don’t do much of. We don’t talk about politics because we’re scared of offending someone. but in most cases, when someone opens the door, you at least to get a, an interesting interaction. So a another question that I think people would have about canvassing is, does this work?

Rich Meagher: Right? It seems like campaigns want to do it. do we know if it,

Don: Well, you’re the political scientist. You tell me you’re supposed to know this stuff from what we have heard. It is effective

Rich Meagher: Yeah.

Don: and, um, 10 a really good get out the vote operation with canvassing and then getting out the vote in the last week.

Rich Meagher: Um, maybe

Don: you might move polls two percent, you know,

Rich Meagher: but

Don: you know, a lot of that’s anecdotal. So you know, I’m sure there’s a, scholarly article somewhere. I don’t want to read it though. Cause I like doing it. I don’t want someone to tell me it’s not effective. You know, I do enough ineffective things in the course of a day.

Rich Meagher: Yeah, the good news is that the literature does seem to

Don: Okay. Well, thank you. So let’s circle back to the happy part of Happy Canvasser. what do you like about this work? What do you like about doing it? like about this work? What do you like it just makes me feel good I feel happy when i’m out there it’s like because you’re meeting people and you’re outside You’re not at home stewing about whatever. So, just to bring it back again, your advice to listeners who are frustrated about politics would be Go out there. I mean, if you believe in a candidate, go out there, canvassing is only one thing you can phone bank. um, people write postcards. And of course, once the election’s here, there’s getting people to the polls and all that kind of stuff. but getting involved either with a candidate or with a cause. It puts you out there and yeah, it’s a little bit nerve, nervy, you know, it’s a little bit, oh my gosh, I got to talk about things. But, um, I think that’s what democracy is. Democracy is an, as a spectator sport. it’s not just, it’s not just voting. It’s pressing issues. It’s pressing. People is pressing agendas out there in the public.

Rich Meagher: kind of thing.

Don: weekends, this fall,

Rich Meagher: You’ll find him happily canvassing around RVA. Thanks, Don.

 

Rich Meagher: That’s our show. Thanks to our guests, Mike Jones, Kristen Nye, and Don Pulaski. RVA’s Got Issues, but we need you to tell us what those issues are. Submit a question or tell us about something exciting going on in your community at our website, rvasgotissues.vpm. org. RVA’s Got Issues is produced by Max Wasserman and Amber Coles and edited by Steve Lack. Our theme music was composed by Alexander Hitchens. Meg Lindholm is our executive producer. Steve Humble is VPM’s Chief Content Officer. I’m your host, Rich Marr. Thanks for listening.