Kenya Gibson on Transparency and Politics

Rich Meagher:

Welcome to RVA’s Got Issues. I’m your host, Rich Meagher. I’ve been hearing about Kenya Gibson pretty much from when she started in Richmond politics for a while. She represented the third district, north side, on the Richmond School Board, and today she represents the same district on the Richmond City Council. Through it all, her name just kept popping up in interviews, news reports, and especially online. Kenya’s mentions are not always complimentary. She’s waded into some difficult issues and drawn some criticism, but she always seemed to me like someone with something important to say, and she was gonna say it, even if it ruffles some feathers. So for years, I’ve wondered, who is this Kenya Gibson? What’s her deal? And so today on our show, I’m sitting down with her here in City Hall to find out. Welcome Kenya.

Kenya Gibson:

Thanks for having me.

Rich Meagher:

So Kenya, I said I was excited to meet you because I’ve been reading and hearing about you for so long. I wanted to hear from you and, and I wanna start with your time on school board. You won a special election for the school board in 2017? Why did you run?

Kenya Gibson:

I ran for the school board. I was a parent. And, um, I had gotten really involved in the advocacy happening around school funding.

Rich Meagher:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kenya Gibson:

Um, you know, when I moved to Richmond, people were like, oh, are you gonna send your kids to the schools? And, and then there were headlines about massive cuts, um, after the recession in 2008. And so when there were teachers who were getting organized and doing something about it, I was, um, inspired by what they were doing and, um, and wanted to be part of the solution.

Rich Meagher:

You could be part of the solution without running for office though. Like, what was it about the being on the school board that, that drew you to that position?

Kenya Gibson:

I had been on the, uh, board of the PTA at the school where my kids were. Um, and in that role I was vice president. And the cool thing about vice president is that you kind of get to do whatever you want.

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Kenya Gibson:

You know? so I used the role as an opportunity to really grow engagement for what was happening, um, around school funding. And so I organized a forum where all the candidates who were running for office in 2016 came to the school. I, uh, moderated a forum myself for the school board in 2016. I got Chris Hilbert, who was our council person at the time to come to one of our meetings and got him on the record saying he would support, um, additional funding for schools. And, you know, that kind of advocacy and outreach gets in your blood. And so when there was a vacancy, I took the opportunity to kind of grow my role in, um, in public service.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. So did you know how you were gonna approach the job when you were running for school board?

Kenya Gibson:

I mean, look, um, I think the question you’re asking is like, I mean, were you a bit naive? I I guess I sure was <laugh>.

Rich Meagher:

I wasn’t asking that, but, but that’s a good question, I guess, right?

Kenya Gibson:

I think that is the question.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Kenya Gibson:

And yeah, I mean, uh, you know, the person that I am today, I mean, I’ve, I have a, a I think a, a wider appreciation for, for how the system works good and bad. Um, but ultimately I think that what I did know is that the advocacy that that got me there is what would keep me here. And it was important to me to really find ways to leverage the voices of, um, people in the community who are doing great work.

Rich Meagher:

While on the board, right, you were a key voice on, on a number of issues, right? You, you were speaking up for the schools, taking over school construction from city government. I think you were looking into like the number of expulsions that were happening. You continued to raise the alarm about declining enrollment. Um, but I think a defining moment came in in 2018, right? With the Navy Hill Development project. The city wanted to redevelop downtown Richmond build a new arena, big price tag. Right? And, and you stepped in. Why, why did you feel it was important for you, a school board member to speak out against a development project?

Kenya Gibson:

Well, I mean, this is a development project that had direct influence on school funding. So it was talking about a publicly funded coliseum, and the method of, of funding, it was a, of was a TIF model.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Kenya Gibson:

And not all TIFs are bad that basically saying, you know, when you build something that the incremental tax growth would then fund the project. Um, I think that made sense when you were funding short pump and there was a big field there. But when we’re talking about, uh, a project that was going to be built on what was already the highest value property that we have in the city, and in order to fund it, it was not just that property itself, but, you know, looking at an 80 block, um, you know, radius, a very large plot of wading bank,

Rich Meagher:

Like all of downtown essentially was gonna be paying for this arena, right?

Kenya Gibson:

Yeah. The numbers just didn’t add up. And look, I really appreciate the, the smarts that we have, you know, in, in the community. Um, and people really understood that this was a model that had failed in other municipalities. And so, you know, thinking about what did I expect that I would have an opportunity to weigh in on matters that not only would impact the lives of students who are in the school system, you know, today at that time, but, but this would have, I believe, really been a financial decision that would have poorly impacted, um, students for generations.

Rich Meagher:

So this was a victory, right? We, we don’t have a, a new arena. The funding was not deferred from the downtown to pay for this arena. But I think your, your later years on the school board, like were in some ways kind of rough ones for the school board, right? Critics talked about dysfunction a lot, like long meetings, board members not following procedures. Did you feel that dysfunction? Did it feel like that at the time?

Kenya Gibson:

Look, I think that, um, democracy can be messy and there are disagreements that are going to happen. They should happen. The opposite of having disagreements in anybody is collusion. And so I do think that it’s to be expected that if there is true transparency and, um, and you’re, and, and seeing elected officials have discussions about the merits of whatever it is that’s on the table, um, to me is a reflection of democracy that’s working.

Rich Meagher:

I mean, I get that point, and certainly I don’t think anyone thought that members of the school board were colluding together, right, in secret. There was a lot out in the open. But I mean, so there was a group that we talked to last year, the, the Richmonders for Effective Governance of Schools like this regs group. And they weren’t even worried about the politics of people running for school board last year. They just wanted candidates to commit to, to procedure, to training, to governance. Like do you see how frustrated people were with the way the board was operating, the school board was operating those, those, those four years, that second term of yours?

Kenya Gibson:

Public education has gotten incredibly political.

Rich Meagher:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kenya Gibson:

In this moment in time, right? I mean, this is the biggest pot of money that typically goes to schools. And so as a result, there’s a lot of interest in it. Then in addition to that, there’s discussions of freedom of speech and, um, and a myriad of other issues that, that are now part of the discussion about public education today. I mean, and especially in the heels of pandemic, we saw our viewership of our meetings skyrocket, um, because all of a sudden everybody cared a lot about what was happening at school board meetings.

Rich Meagher:

Right.

Kenya Gibson:

So in that context, I don’t quite follow any organization that would not have a perspective on politics. And, uh, ultimately there, there are a lot of discussions that are happening. You’ve talking about charter schools. Um, do you want to have things that are insourced? Do you want them outsourced?

You know, we’re talking about teachers and, and, and collective bargaining. I mean, these are, these are huge concerns, big issues, um, that have true stakes on our, on the students. And so I question when the body is having those discussions, right? About whether or not, you know, custodians are going to be making a living wage on whether or not, um, you know, teachers are going to have the right to free speech on discussions like the, um, the publicly funded coliseum. To suggest that these conversations were only going to that there, you know, that there wouldn’t be some debate to me, I just don’t under, I don’t quite follow.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. So this is what interests me about school board years, right? And it sometimes felt to me like you were using the school board as a venue for, for articulating this, this bigger vision of the city, this this discussion of, of, of democracy. But I think that some critics felt like as a result, you’re sort of neglecting the basic governance stuff that needed to be done, right? That it wasn’t just about the big picture issues, but that some of the, the sort of the basics were being neglected by the board, like making sure that the, the meetings running functionally and that, um, board members aren’t fighting with each other. There were a couple of like high profile moments where board members were yelling at each other, you know, that kind of appearance of, yeah, you might say it’s democracy, but it, it looked like dysfunction to people who were watching it.

Kenya Gibson:

I mean, so when I first got on to the school board, the initial focus that I had was in ensuring like, how could our, our meetings work a bit better? And so there were a number of initiatives which passed, um, which were you know, the umbrella was about good governance. And so that included things like ensuring that we got documentation several days in advance. And that’s important because it’s not just about the transparency for the participants of the body, but for the public to be able to engage. So, I mean, I’m going to push back a bit because I think at the end of the day, the body as a board, we made history, you know. Richmond Public Schools was the first school district to allow teachers and staff to be able to collectively bargain the first in the, in the state. And that was a huge thing, right?

And we’re talking about 40 years of, of not having collective bargaining as a state, right? There are political forces, believe it or not, that did not want to see that happen. Just like there were political forces that wanted the Navy Hill project to proceed, just like there were political forces that, um, would wanna outsource more contracts or limit the ability for, for teachers to have a voice. Those things were all happening. You know, before I got on the school board and I watched meetings with, um, I think some of the perspective that you bring up. And when I got on the board, I had a new appreciation for the folks that I had considered to be, um, you know, the dissent.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Kenya Gibson:

You know, look, the reason why things are the way they are, I mean, they’re, they’re there for a reason, right? I have, you know, used the, the tools that I have had as a member of the board, as a, as a part of the kind of community of advocates to provide the perspective of, you know, democracy is an important thing that, that must be maintained. And I’m really very, you know, proud of what we’ve been able to accomplish.

Rich Meagher:

We’ll hear more from Kenya Gibson and how she’s trying to carry transparency onto Richmond City Council when we come back on RVAs Got Issues.

This is RVAs Got Issues, we’re back with Richmond City Council member Kenya Gibson. So last year, Kenya you win election. You’re on city council for about five minutes, and then you and Sarah Abubaker are taking on the mayor on residency requirements for city workers. Right? And it wasn’t an acrimonious kind of thing, but it was a definite disagreement during the budget season, earlier this year, like a challenge to the new mayor. Um, were you thinking like, differently about city council or was it sort of just like continuation of, of the school board that let you have the kind of confidence to say, all right, I know I’m new here, but I’m, I’m gonna speak out here for something that I want to change?

Kenya Gibson:

The residency requirements, that was, um, council member Abubaker, she, she was the primary patron on that paper. Um, I was happy to support it. I think it makes good sense.

Rich Meagher:

And by the way, just for our listeners, right, a paper is what a bill, like a bill becomes a law. And here in the city of Richmond, a paper becomes a law, right? Yeah.

Kenya Gibson:

Yeah. As it relates to the budget, I, um, feel that ultimately the budget is a reflection of what our priorities are as a city. And, uh, my objective is for the city, for the community to be as involved with that process as possible. But I could see that in the way that the process was outlined, it was difficult for that to happen. So, um, I think that those observations were shared by others on, on the body and, and in the mayor’s office as well. And my hope is that through reform and practice that, um, we’ll see more engagement and in that process, a document that better reflects the community’s needs.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. And so more recently you have introduced these transparency initiatives, and I guess I’m seeing a theme here, right? Is that important to you because of this idea of participation, because of this idea of democracy? Like what, what brought that to the top of your agenda this year?

Kenya Gibson:

Yeah, I mean, I, I like democracy, right?

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Kenya Gibson:

I mean, in this, it’s 2025.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Kenya Gibson:

Something that definitely needs to be protected. And so where I sit, you know, I, I’m elected, I have a grassroots, right, campaign. I get a lot of in-kind donations, but the cash is tight on my campaigns. I don’t take money from corporations, didn’t take money from, you know, big developers. And the same was true in my school board campaign. So as a result, I, I get to govern through my values, right? You know, politics, you’re an elected official, you’re gonna vote a certain way, and you, you wanna show that you have the moral right in doing that, you know? The benefit that I have is that I answer to the people who elected me, right? And so with transparency, I don’t have anything to hide, right? And so I believe it serves the public’s best interest to have as much transparency in the process as possible.

Rich Meagher:

I wanna talk about a key part of these transparency initiatives. The, the one that’s become a major disagreement with the mayor, which is this FOIA library, right? These freedom of information requests. Can you explain what that is, this FOIA library? Like how is this supposed to work? What were you specifically proposing?

Kenya Gibson:

So the FOIA a is a Freedom of Information Act, and basically this is a section in Virginia Code, which says that the way we publicly, you know, govern and operate, it should be available to the public. It’s the code that ensures some accountability and visibility in, um, in how, uh, governance happens. And so, uh, any member of the public, if they want access to some information, they can submit a request to get access to that information. I had experience in submitting a FOIA first, as, as a parent. The, uh, couple mayors ago had made claims in the budget that they had spent, um, you know, close to $200 million on school construction. And I wanted to see a, a, you know, the documentation on how that was spent, and boy that went through city hall, like a hot potato, it took three months …

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Kenya Gibson:

before that FOIA was was complete. And so I could appreciate, you know, the, uh, challenge that people are facing when they submit FOIAs, request for information, that it feels like the city doesn’t wanna fill. Right? When that, you know, material came back, um, for what it’s worth, it didn’t add up to the $200 million that was in budget.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. So that shows you like why just you personally felt like this is a, this is the reason why I know FOIA is important. Like, I wanted the number, I got the number, it was the wrong number. Like, people need to know this information. Right?

Kenya Gibson:

Exactly. And I know, you know, in, in talking to other advocates, right? This is not something that’s been in a bubble. And certainly the current lawsuit with the former FOIA officer reinforces what, you know, that it, it, who knows what will Judge will say, of course. But there are aspects of the complaint that, that, that are relatable. So, yeah. So the objective of this paper, right, is to, again, I’m always thinking what can make the city more transparent, right? We wanna transform the culture of the city, and, um, and really, uh, my goal is you want more, you want more transparency because it’s, and it’s not personal, right? Like, if things are just open and available, it’s not about pointing fingers at anybody, right? It’s just how we work. So I really believe that the way we transform our city is through what I call radical transparency.

And so the way that this particular paper would work, right, is anytime something’s released to one member of the public, it’s now public. And so it would make it then available to every member of the public, um, with some exceptions. And so the administration has put in a competing paper for another FOIA library, which look either way is progress, right?

Rich Meagher:

Right.

Kenya Gibson:

Like, I’m, I, I appreciate that 100% Richmond is going to have a FOIA library, and I’m very proud and and thrilled about that. But the difference between the two papers is that whereas my paper has a kind of a set rubric, the other paper, the administration’s paper allows, uh, a lot of discretion.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. So basically the mayor wants to empower people who work for the city to say, I don’t really want this out there. And, and for good reasons, they think, but to say, I don’t want this information out there, I’m gonna hold it back. I’m not gonna just automatically put it in the library. Right? That’s what the mayor wants to be able to do, empower a few more people in the city to make that decision. Does that sound right?

Kenya Gibson:

Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t wanna speak on behalf of the, the, the administration. Um, but the end of the day, the difference is that one paper has discretion and the other does not. And my goal is ultimately for the city, for residents to trust the government more. And I think that the way that we earn that trust is by just putting as much out there as we can.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. So the, the, the mayor still prefers his version and right, literally right before this meeting, a, a council committee met, I think reviewed both, and they’re gonna recommend the mayor’s version not yours. And, and both of ’em will go before council, but it looks like his vision of this is gonna prevail. So, I don’t know. What, what’s your take home message from this process that you’ve been through here with this version, the mayor’s version, this kind of, I don’t wanna say battle, but this kind of fight to, to have your version prevail?

Kenya Gibson:

So there’s three papers that we put forward, right? One was this paper with the FOIA library. We also, um, introduced a paper to provide more transparency on procurement. And so there’s an OpenGov portal where there are several data sets. One of them is the contracts. Now, what I learned is I was, we were working on the budget, was that the contract data set didn’t have the amount of the contracts in it.

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Kenya Gibson:

Right?

Rich Meagher:

So you couldn’t find out how much the money was the, the city was actually giving to people for their contracts, right? Yeah.

Kenya Gibson:

Yeah. That was not there. So, um, this other paper codifies requiring that that information be available to the public and also now includes those items that are the bids that were not successful. So getting a more comprehensive view of the procurement process. And that was passed, um, also has the support of the administration, and I expect to that, that that will pass, um, when it goes to the full body. And then the third paper was about boards and commissions. And that basically requires that, you know, so if somebody’s on a boarding commission, um, that’s making sizable financial decisions, that there’s, uh, a more robust statement of economic interest that’s filed. And so, you know, ultimately I think that, um, you know, I feel pretty good about three papers that I think are going to take, um, a sizable notable step in, in terms of bringing more transparency. Was it easy? No.

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Kenya Gibson:

But did I expect it to be? No. <laugh>

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. So I, I want to ask about this kind of, the ease of getting something through getting a paper through city council, right? So as this FOIA library case shows, right? You may not get exactly what you want. Sometimes you can get something. And, and, and we’ve had on our show previous, uh, city council presidents, uh, Mike Jones, Kristen Nye, and they told us that the key question, right, is how do you get to five, right? Five votes outta nine votes on the city council. So when you think of this, you know, you’re gonna introduce some, some papers on radical transparency. Are you thinking about how to get to five? Or are you thinking about something else?

Kenya Gibson:

You know, I, that might make me a bit different, right? Yes, I wanna get to five, but I’m not going to necessarily not do something if I think it’s the right thing to do. And so, I don’t know, maybe that’s controversial, I don’t know. But I think that at the end of the day, I think it’s important for us to have the discussion, you know? And so I may not get every vote. Um, I may not win every time, but I think that the city is better for having those discussions, having them publicly so that the city can see, you know, what’s, what’s possible.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. So I, I you were hitting at this like, key question about politics, and I think it’s really interesting because, you know, I, I teach politics. It’s sort of abstract when we talk about it, but you’re actually a decision maker. You’re a policymaker. You’re, you’re living it, right? And so I think about this question about, about what you accomplish versus the principles that you have. Like I hear this complaint sometimes about progressives in the city. I hear it about Richmond for All, which is a progressive political group that you’ve been a part of that helped found, right, this idea that some folks are just less interested in actually changing things. They just want to be right and stay true to their principles. I don’t know, do you think that people might say that about you, right? That, that there’s a commitment to principle that has to be sacrificed for compromise at some point? And what do you, when do you do that? When do you say like, okay, I am, I’m okay with sacrificing here to get something through the council?

Kenya Gibson:

So I think what part of what makes me tick is that I just have such incredible optimism and the power of Richmonders who are just smart. They do their homework and they care very deeply about the city, right? And so when I remember we were having the first discussion as a city about the casino. Everybody else thought it was a sure thing, you know? Everyone did. And so with less money and the will of the people, we decided whether that was gonna happen here or not, two times. And so because of that optimism I have, I’m really thinking more about the people, you know, the people who voted for me, the people I talk to, the people I see in the grocery store. That’s what pushes me to whether I bring something to the table. And sometimes it will have the votes and sometimes it won’t.

But I do think that having the discussion is stronger for it. And at the end of the day, I think I’m a pretty practical gal. You know, I have no apologies. I definitely lean left, but I, I think that ultimately, uh, I want people to know where I stand on things one way or the other, right? I want for people to know where all of us stand on things, and that is what motivates me to move forward. And so the thing of it is, right, is that we’ve gotten a lot of stuff done, you know? I mean, again, like bringing, uh, the, the three papers I’m really excited about. I think the discussion about the budget and how that works is, is a critical one. The, you know, collective bargaining, I mean, that was, that was huge. And I think ensuring that, thinking practically in terms of whether or not the city could afford that coliseum was an important one too.

Rich Meagher:

And even earlier this year, the RHA, the housing authority, um, I mean, you were a voice in trying to hold them accountable, right? Um, kind of raise your voice to raise the alarm a bit, and the mayor eventually stepped in and it seems like that process is changing as well, right?

Kenya Gibson:

Yeah, I think so. I mean, you’re talk, you bring up, you know, Gilpin court. You know, sure, if, if, if I had my magic shoes and I could go back in time and, and see a federal government that, that supports public housing as it should, you know, I’d love to do that. But in this moment in time, the objective is better. You know, what can we do to make better end results for the people that live there today? And I believe we get to better the more visibility people have to, to what’s happening.

Rich Meagher:

Kenya Gibson represents the third district on the Richmond City Council. Thank you so much.

Kenya Gibson:

Thank you.

Rich Meagher:

That’s our show. Thanks to our guest, Kenya Gibson. Tell us about your issues by visiting our website, RVAsGotissues.vpm.org, or send us an email at [email protected]. Be sure to leave a review on your favorite podcasting platform. RVA’s Got Issues is produced by Max Wasserman and Rachel Dwyer. Script editing on this episode by Nicki Stein. Audio mix by Steve Lack. Our theme music was composed by Alexander Hitchens. Shawn Freude is our executive producer. Steve Humble is VPM’s Chief Content Officer. I’m your host, Rich Meagher. Thanks for listening.