VCU and Richmond: Growing Together?

Rich Meagher:

VCU, Virginia Commonwealth University. Richmond’s urban university. One of Richmond’s largest employers. VCU is kind of a big deal. And it has changed a lot over the years, changing Richmond along with it.

Vox Pop #1:

I can see like one, one taller looking building in the background and one like, like shorter one right next to it.

Vox Pop #2:

This is like Richmond during like the medieval times back before, back before internet.

Rich Meagher:

These voices are from VCU students walking around campus. Our producers showed them some pictures we found of the campus from years, even decades ago.

Vox Pop #3:

The cars are so old. What year was this?

Vox Pop #4:

I’m not really sure where this is on campus.

Vox Pop #5:

That’s Monument, that’s like-

Vox Pop #6:

No, that’s not.

Vox Pop #5:

Near Monument. It’s the road next to Monument. Am I crazy?

Vox Pop #4:

Oh, it’s, it’s, it’s the thing by campus, like by the library. Is that the library being built in the back?

Rich Meagher:

When they compare the pictures to what they see in real life today, some parts of campus are barely recognizable.

Vox Pop #4:

It went from like neighborhood to like many people.

Vox Pop #6:

I don’t think those houses were there. I think that’s what, what’s different.

Vox Pop #5:

Yeah, what is so different? I don’t know.

Rich Meagher:

Still, some of it looks kind of the same.

Vox Pop #7:

That’s Rhoads. I, I would recognize Rhoads from anywhere.

It looks, I mean, about the same except there’s not, it doesn’t look like there’s any real like concrete paths through Monroe.

Vox Pop #8:

Campus still looks pretty similar. Like there’s a lot of buildings that keep the historical effect, I think is interesting.

Rich Meagher:

VCU has been around a long time. It’s part of our city. So much part of it that sometimes it’s hard to know where Richmond ends and VCU begins. This is RVA’s Got Issues. I’m Rich Meagher. Today on our show, how does VCU grow and thrive while the city does the same? Can Richmond and VCU grow together?

Vox Pop #1:

Shoot, wait, let me think about this.

Rich Meagher:

One of the complaints I often hear in Richmond is that VCU is eating the city. Too much space, too many buildings. You hear similar complaints in other cities with universities and VCU likes to point out that they own less than 1% of Richmond’s land. Still, there’s no denying that the university’s expansion has had some impact on surrounding neighborhoods. We wanted to find out what that impact feels like and how people in that neighborhood might respond. So joining me today in the studio is our producer, Max, who in addition to making this show, also teaches a podcasting class at VCU. Hi, Max.

Max Wasserman:

Hey, Rich. How’s it going?

Rich Meagher:

Good to have you here.

Max Wasserman:

Good to be here.

Rich Meagher:

So Max, where did you go to find out about VCU’s neighborhood impact?

Max Wasserman:

So I started looking into this question and quickly zeroed in on the Carver neighborhood. So it’s just north of Broad Street, if you don’t know, between Belvidere and Lombardy and when you walk in this neighborhood today, there’s this overwhelming sense that it’s a student’s neighborhood.

Cassandra Calender-Ray:

People say, “Where do you live?” I say, “I live in Carver.” “Oh, you live in, you live around VCU.”

Max Wasserman:

This is Cassandra Calender-Ray. She says she’s lived in the neighborhood since the early ’80s.

Cassandra Calender-Ray:

You know, the identity becomes to me an issue. I live in Carver. I do not live in the VCU neighborhood. I live in Carver and I want to get known that this is a neighborhood and it’s not just a university neighborhood.

Max Wasserman:

So the neighborhood of Carver originally was called Sheep Hill and from what I’ve been told, that’s because the sheeps would come in off the trains and then they’d go up to graze on this hill and then unfortunately that’s really also got slaughtered.

Rich Meagher:

Oh.

Max Wasserman:

Uh, but since the 1800s, Sheep Hill now known as Carver, has been this working class neighborhood, uh, mostly black residents, some Jewish store owners, some German immigrants I was told. There were factories and stores which meant plentiful jobs. But by the ’90s, the, the picture had started to change. The neighborhood was in decline, factories, storefronts, even one of the local high schools had closed. So when someone heard Carver, what they really heard was crime.

Jerome Legions:

It was scary, you know, for the most part. Matter of fact, I know that there was a entryway into Carver that made it one way that you have to leave it because people would get off the highway, buy drugs and get back on the highway.

Max Wasserman:

This is Jerome Legions. In 1999, he bought a two bedroom home in the neighborhood and if you’re wondering, his monthly mortgage payment was $192.

Rich Meagher:

Wow.

Max Wasserman:

I know. Crazy.

Jerome Legions:

And so the people that were living here for the most part, and I’m not being mean or anything like that, but it was people that were adventurous, you know, that says,” Oh, this would be a great place to build my wood shop” or whatever. Or there were people here that f- I felt as though that just couldn’t get out.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah, so this is not an unusual story, right? You’ve got this thriving working class neighborhood. It falls on decline. You know, I have to imagine that since this is Richmond and this is America, like race has a, a, a piece to do with this. You know, white flight from the city, maybe under investment in that neighborhood, but also it just sometimes neighborhoods just kind of decline economically. The things compound, right? So I’m, I’m not really surprised about that story. You know, I feel bad because it’s bad when it happens to folks like that. Um, and so that’s where the neighborhood is, right, in, in the late ’90s. So where does VCU enter the picture?

Max Wasserman:

Well, Rich, it’s more like how does VCU enter the court because it has to do with basketball.

Rich Meagher:

<laugh> Okay.

Max Wasserman:

So in 1996, VCU wanted to build a new basketball stadium and they wanted to do it in Carver.

Rich Meagher:

Right. So this is now the Siegel Center, right? The big part of, of VCU’s identity-

Max Wasserman:

Exactly.

Rich Meagher:

… like basketball games, but like they had that final four run 15 years ago, that all happened, you know, as a result of what was going on in the Siegel Center.

Max Wasserman:

Totally. And before that, it was just this warehouse. Now, of course, it’s this massive 7,600 seat arena.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. So how did folks in, in Carver feel about this big, giant thing dropping into their backyard?

Max Wasserman:

Yeah. I, I think there was a worry that it was gonna wipe out the neighborhood.

Cassandra Calender-Ray:

Our desire was that it would not encroach upon the neighborhood, that they would not take over the neighborhood, that we could be partners.

Max Wasserman:

And this is where Barbara Abernathy enters the picture.

Jerome Legions:

She was about maybe 5’6″, 5’7″, you know, slim featured woman, uh, gray hair, very attractive woman, dark skinned woman for the most part.

Max Wasserman:

There are two things you need to know about Barbara Abernathy. One: she loved Carver. She founded its civic association and became its first president. And two: she wouldn’t take no for an answer.

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Jerome Legions:

So she would come and look in my office or at my desk and say,” I didn’t see her at the Civic Association meeting.”

Max Wasserman:

Jerome worked with her at a place called Reynolds Metals.

Jerome Legions:

And so I avoided her, but you know, how you avoid somebody at Reynolds Metals when you gotta go to lunch or get on the elevator.

Max Wasserman:

Barbara had seen VCU approach other neighborhoods for development like when they wanted to expand into Oregon Hill back in the ’80s and the ’90s.

Cassandra Calender-Ray:

At one point they were talking about going over into Oregon Hill.

Max Wasserman:

Again, Cassandra Calender-Ray.

Cassandra Calender-Ray:

And the Oregon Hill community fought really and were vehement about them coming into Oregon Hill and I think that, that Carver was a bit more accepting and welcoming.

Max Wasserman:

So Barbara brokered a meeting with then university president Dr. Eugene Trani and she also brought Tim Kaine, as one does.

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Max Wasserman:

Uh, back then, of course, he wasn’t the, uh, uh, governor of the state. He was a council member for the city of Richmond and together they came up with an agreement.

Jerome Legions:

Dr. Trani wrote a MOU and he said, “We will cross no streets in Carver unless we’re invited to do so.” And so because he did that, VCU would always come to us and say, “We’re interested in building in Carver.” And they would always hit us up with, “Well, it’s better than what you got.” And we were like, “Well, you’re right about that.” But then they would always say, “Well, what do you want?” And we would always say, “We want this.” That’s why when they put the buildings up on Broad Street, we kind of said we want retail on the first floor. So we were talking about mixed use long before anybody was talking about mixed use. That was conversation that we would have in Carver. We knew that having retail in the neighborhood was really important because that gave people an opportunity to walk around.

And so it helped the neighborhood out because people now felt safer walking around in the neighborhood because they would see other people walking in the neighborhood. So that was the big, big, big, one of the things that VCU helped us do.

Rich Meagher:

This is kind of unusual. Like I understand VCU wanting to reach out and connect with the neighborhood. Um, that happens all the time. Institutions are like trying to like win over the neighborhoods, but it doesn’t always work that the neighborhoods reach out back, right? That, uh, this, you know, you have, you have neighborhoods all across the country that are, are kind of in this clash with universities as these developers. And here it seemed like the Carver folks were like, “No, actually maybe we should work with these, uh, folks at VCU rather than against them.” Um, so did it work, right? Did they, did they get a good deal, uh, with this, uh, you know, collaboration here?

Max Wasserman:

The answer really depends on what you measure. So if it’s crime or neighborhood investment, then yeah, I would say yes. Several people told me that VCU police have helped address crime. I also heard about tree plantings, kids getting new computers at Carver Elementary, new community spaces. But if you’re talking about the soul of the neighborhood, what made Carver Carver-

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Max Wasserman:

… then you need to look into the past for answers.

James McBride:

Because some things are gonna change and some things will change, but how do you still call it Carver?

Max Wasserman:

This recording is part of an oral history that started in 1999 between VCU and Carver. James McBride, he’s the guy speaking. He lived in Carver and worked for the city of Richmond.

James McBride:

What can the community hold onto? What must we hold onto? What must we let go? And there’s some things and that’s growth. You’re gonna have to let some things go, share some things in order to grow.

Max Wasserman:

There are a dozen conversations like this. Residents, a former mayor, public officials, all opining on this question of what will happen to Carver now that VCU is here. I listened to most of them and one of the viewpoints I heard from residents, uh, at the time was this sense of cautious optimism of what VCU could bring.

James McBride:

If the university wants us to be a part or partners with them, then we want the university to be a partner with us. We, we want some things for our, our children.

Max Wasserman:

But not everyone felt this way.

Carolyn Hawley:

And students stay on the other side of Broad Street. <laugh>

James McBride:

<laugh> All right, girl.

Carolyn Hawley:

I’m done. I’m trying <laugh>

James McBride:

[unintelligible] <laugh>

Max Wasserman:

<laugh> Yeah, they’re having a hoot there.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Max Wasserman:

So yeah, on this same recording with James is a woman named Carolyn Hawley. She was an auditor for the State Corporation Commission and I’ve been told she actually still lives in Richmond.

Carolyn Hawley:

The main thing that I’m concerned about are the people who own property in Carver who don’t have the vision of the community and they want to renovate their housing or bring it back online so they can rent it out to students. This is not, this is not a students community.

Max Wasserman:

26 years later, people are still talking about this.

Cassandra Calender-Ray:

Universities can take over a area. You know, I’ve seen it, I see it in Greensboro, I see it, uh, I see it in other cities, uh, in, in, in other states and I, I really don’t want to see VCU take, take our neighborhood away.

Max Wasserman:

Cassandra is one of the few people who has lived in Carver long enough to remember the promise of what VCU could bring and what it actually brought. So I figured if all people she would have insight into this question, has VCU been good for Carver?

Cassandra Calender-Ray:

Yes, but I do pine for and wish for some type of cap on the cost of housing in the neighborhood. Now someone wanting to buy a home, a family, a working family wanted to buy a home in Carver, it would be hard. I’ve got some new neighbors right down the street with some children that go to Carver and children that go to Albert Hill and it warms my heart when I see that and I, I’m hoping that more families will be able to, um, become homeowners or renters in Carver, their families.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. I, this is the, the, the same thing, right, that they were talking about 25 years ago, which is, yeah, development is good, you don’t want rundown neighborhoods. I mean, it’s, it’s kind of the broader gentrification debate that we’re having in the city too. Like, you want your neighborhood to be better, but you want it to be better for the people in the neighborhood, not like new folks who come in or as, uh, you know, Carolyn’s worrying about like student housing, right? Not that it seems like she’s against students, right, but that could displace the folks.

Max Wasserman:

I don’t know she sounded pretty against students to me. <laugh>

Rich Meagher:

Okay. <laugh> Yeah. It, it’s just, you know, when you have this big institution that also just kind of like the necessity has to be a big developer because it’s got to grow and it’s got to build dorms and it’s got to build buildings and, and Siegel Centers, uh, that you’re going to run into this problem, right, of yeah, we, we want investment but we also want to be able to stay here and enjoy the fruits of that investment. And it sounds like the folks in Carver are still kind of unsure of how much that has happened.

Max Wasserman:

Yeah. I, I, it really felt like deja vu when I was talking with Cassandra and Jerome and then listening to these recordings, I’m like, this is, they’re, they’re talking about the same things and I don’t think these issues are ever going to fully resolve themselves. Like you’re saying, one of the oral histories that sticks in my mind was with Roy West and he is a former mayor of Richmond and when asked this question of if VCU is good for Carver, but, but specifically could VCU endanger Carver? Could it endanger the soul of the neighborhood? He said, quote, “It’s a danger only to the extent that you don’t have leaders here who would lose sight of this community’s destiny and its history.” So after Barbara Abernathy, who is sort of that original figure in, in this movement to, uh, preserve Carver, there was a series of different leaders and, and currently it’s Jerome Legions who runs the neighborhood civic league that she started.

Jerome Legions:

It was a demand. “You coming to the Civic Association meeting?” um, “Yeah, I’ll be there,” and I go ho- go home and hide.

Max Wasserman:

And so one day you cracked, you’re like, “Oh, I just gotta go? “

Jerome Legions:

Y- Yeah, I, I, I got here and I sat in the meeting and I sat in the back of the room and I watched her navigate through the process.

Max Wasserman:

So Jerome told me that he’s focused on preserving the churches and schools from Carver of yesterday, back when it was this primarily working class black neighborhood, but his term as president is about to come up and he told me he respects term limits-

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Max Wasserman:

… So he is looking for replacement. So the question for me is who that will be and can they continue to maintain this vision of what Carver should be?

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. I, I don’t think Jerome Legion … I mean, he’s a kind of legend in Richmond. I don’t think Jerome Legion’s gonna quietly wander off into the sunset, but still, right? The question is less about can Carver stay the same, right? ‘Cause the answer is no. And, and Jerome and, and Carolyn, these other folks recognize that. I think it’s more about how much of Carver’s past can we preserve and what does that look like in this new neighborhood that’s moving forward? Who are the people? What are the institutions? What are the places? And, and we can’t answer that now, right, because that’s gonna change over the next decade or two to see sort of what it looks like. So I guess it’s just we need to, um, come back on RVA’s Got Issues season 25 and, and, and check in and see how it’s going.

Max Wasserman:

I, I hope we’re still on the air then.

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Max Wasserman:

That’d be great job security.

Rich Meagher:

<laugh> Well, thanks for bringing this story to us, Max.

Max Wasserman:

Yeah, it’s great to be here, great to chat with you, Rich.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah, now go back to work.

Max Wasserman:

All right, bye-bye. <laugh>

Rich Meagher:

Coming up, in some ways, VCU is really two different universities, the Monroe Park campus and the health center. What happens to Richmond if and when both campuses become one? That’s what we come back on RVA’s Got Issues. This is RVA’s Got Issues. We’re talking about VCU and Richmond. And so we thought we’d go to a VCU VIP. Andrew Kerley is graduating from VCU this spring and he’s the outgoing executive editor of the Commonwealth Times, VCU’s student-led news organization. Andrew, welcome back to the show.

Andrew Kerley:

Thanks for having me, Rich.

Rich Meagher:

It’s good to have you. Now, Andrew, I thought we’d start with VCU’s master plan, right? This sounds like super villainy, right? The, the master plan <evil laugh>.

Andrew Kerley:

<laugh>

Rich Meagher:

Uh, but it’s not, right? It’s not unusual. Lots of big institutions with campuses would have one of these. Basically, it’s like a long-term plan for future development. Here’s what the campus looks like now. Here’s what it’s gonna look like in 10 years or 20 years or 50 years. So you and your team at the Commonwealth Times have reported on VCU’s master plan. What are some of the, the main goals that this master plan lays out for the future of VCU?

Andrew Kerley:

Yeah, you know, the master plan is always changing, but I would say in terms of the, the major projects, recently we saw the creation of their new STEM building on Franklin Street. Um, sometime in 2027 we’re supposed to be seeing the completion of the CoStar Center for the Arts and Innovation, which is this big, giant, modern looking arts hub on Broad and Belvidere right across from the ICA. You gotta think about the athletic village, all these new fields and there’s tons of little projects here and there, renovations to these, you know, century old buildings and, but really it, it’s always changing. There’s always something new springing up.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. And, um, that’s kind of part of the, the changing nature of VCU, right? But there’s also this thing about, uh, the master plan as being like “One VCU” is the branding, right? And that’s trying to solve a particular problem that VCU has, right? Which is that it’s not one university, it’s sort of like two universities.

Andrew Kerley:

Yeah. You know, there’s VCU the university and then there’s VCU, the health system. And one of them is right downtown and one of them is a little more down Broad and when VCU, you know, says this “One VCU” thing, I think sort of the implication is they want the campuses to be very connected, but things will get complicated when you realize that there’s about a mile stretch in between the two.

Rich Meagher:

Right. Right. And so what is gonna happen? I mean, how are they gona connect the two campuses together? Um, is it just, uh, a giant bulldozer runs down Broad Street and, and then just stick a, a big VCU sign there and it’s probably not gonna work that way, right?

Andrew Kerley:

I think VCU has made a big effort to reassure people-

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Andrew Kerley:

… That what you just described will definitely not happen. And they made a point a few years ago to say, “We’re not going to keep buying up land around the city. We’re only gonna buy up land in between the campuses or around the campuses.” You know, VCU is now building the CoStar Center for the Arts and Innovation. So that’s kinda, I think, the, the largest encroachment down that path.

Rich Meagher:

One other plan that I know has been talked about a lot is this idea of, uh, turning Grace Street into a kind of like Main Street for the university. How’s that going?

Andrew Kerley:

Yeah. I mean, if you look back in the archives of the Commonwealth Times, you can see how- I like to call it scrappy and, and raunchy Grace Street used to be-

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Andrew Kerley:

… Uh, very much known for, you know, biker bars and punk shows and there was even a, a porn theater. Um, am I allowed to say that?

Rich Meagher:

Sure.

Andrew Kerley:

<laugh>

Rich Meagher:

It’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a fact. It’s out there, Yeah.

Andrew Kerley:

Yeah. Nowadays, much of the businesses you see on Grace Street are dining spots for VCU students that mainly, you know, they might take money, but the main thing they’re doing is taking VCU’s dining dollars or, or students, uh, meal swipes. And an interesting problem that sort of poses is what happens to those businesses when students go away for the summer or the winter. So there’s like a few pizza places along Grace Street that aren’t owned by VCU, they’re not affiliated, but they serve a lot of students. And then when everyone, you know, skips town, business really dries up.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. So this is, this is a lot of changes. It’s, it’s decades really of VCU changing, expanding. I should say we invited VCU on to talk about their growing footprint. They declined to join us, um, but there’s a lot of folks who, you know, have good things to say about VCU, right? And VCU, obviously a hugely important institution in the city of Richmond, right? A big employer, the economic impact, we’re not quite sure how to measure that exactly. I guess VCU themselves have measured that, right?

Andrew Kerley:

Yeah. So VCU just put out this economic impact study where they’re saying they have an over 18 billion economic impact on the Commonwealth of Virginia. Now, that’s kind of vague. You gotta remember, it’s an, it’s an in- house study.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Andrew Kerley:

But nevertheless, it’s hard to ignore their economic impact. Whatever it is, it’s definitely huge.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. And it’s not just the, the economic impact, right? Obviously as a cultural institution, right, the collaborations they have with government and the health center itself, like having a good health center in a city is really important, positive impacts that people can point to, but there’s also some concerns about VCU, right? So I, I guess the question I would ask is, is VCU good for Richmond?

Andrew Kerley:

I think the answer to that question depends on where you come from. So we, we have to mention the obvious tension between people who are from Richmond, who were born in Richmond and the people who are moving to Richmond to be VCU students. So when you look at that economic impact, the question is, who is this benefiting? Uh, if I’m a resident in Jackson Ward and my family has lived in Jackson Ward for a long time and I see all these new things springing up in the arts district on Broad Street, I’m gonna wonder, you know, sure, this new stuff is cool, it’s bringing events and businesses to my area, but also it’s kind of driving up the rent a little.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Andrew Kerley:

And VCU students are renting out the houses in my neighborhood. And, you know, is this benefiting the people who already lived here or is this benefiting the people who are moving here?

Rich Meagher:

There’s also this sort of like tax-based question, the fact that the university, they’re nonprofit essentially so they’re not paying taxes and all that land and we could use it for other stuff that would generate commercial activity.

Andrew Kerley:

Yeah. And, you know, a lot of people would argue that VCU’s payments in lieu of taxes are not enough to fill the void there. I think a really good example of this is VCU’s Rams Express shuttle buses, right? So VCU during COVID started giving money to GRTC to fund the Pulse Bus. Um, and what that did is it made it free, uh, and they wanted VCU students to have free transportation between VCU Health and VCU the university. Uh, about a year ago today, VCU pulled out of giving them that funding and they created their own VCU student staff and faculty exclusive shuttle bus that operates basically on the exact same route except it’s gated off to everyone who doesn’t fit those bills.

Rich Meagher:

So th- this, you know, shift from GRTC to the Rams bus, uh, I mean, it, it, it’s not unusual for VCU to make a change, right? This is what VCU has been doing for years, if not decades. And VCU’s also kind of changing as a university, right? Arts are still a, a big part of its identity, um, but it seems like it’s trying to become something else here. How are you seeing VCU manage that transition?

Andrew Kerley:

Yeah, I mean, VCU’s obviously known as one of the top public art schools in the country, if not the world. Um, and if you look at how VCU was founded when it combined with MCV in 1968, the idea was to create a public institution that could solve modern problems, urban problems, um, and they felt like students in Virginia needed something like that. So that was a lot of arts, a lot of humanities, social sciences. It was a very, like, political, socially engaged environment.

Rich Meagher:

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Kerley:

And then jump forward a few decades. There’s a, a big anxiety among the VCU community that the school is starting to, you know, shutter some of that in favor of STEM research initiatives. So the big things are VCU wants to reach a billion dollars in research funding and they want to reach 30,000 students and they want all of those students to be applying for research grants and whatnot. And some faculty feel like it’s harder to get those grants if they’re not doing something STEM related.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. And I’m sure VCU acknowledges the importance of the humanities, but they’re responding too to pressures in the country and, and on higher ed in general about STEM research and getting good jobs, right, out of college.

Andrew Kerley:

Yeah. I mean, people have been saying for years how useless and arts degree might be.

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Andrew Kerley:

Some people are saying, “You know, we should go to trade school instead.” And I think VCU’s trying to meet that moment and it’s definitely causing some strife and starting a lot of conversations.

Rich Meagher:

Andrew Kerley is outgoing executive editor of VCU’s Commonwealth Times and is graduating with a degree in journalism and political science, which are the best things.

Andrew Kerley:

<laugh> That’s right.

Rich Meagher:

Thank you, Andrew.

Andrew Kerley:

Thank you for having me.

Rich Meagher:

That’s our show. Thanks to our guest, Andrew Kerley. Special thanks to Jerome, Cassandra, and the rest of the Carver Area Civic Improvement League. Oral history audio is courtesy of Virginia Commonwealth University Libraries. Tell us about your issues. Visit our website, rvasgotissues.vpm.org. Follow us on Instagram @richgotissues or send us an email at [email protected]. Be sure to leave a review on your favorite podcasting platform. RVA’s Got Issues is produced by Max Wasserman and Rachel Dwyer. Script editing on this episode by Nicki Stein and Rachel Dwyer. Audio mixed by Steve Lack. Our theme music was composed by Alexander Hitchens. Shawn Freude is our executive producer. Steve Humble is VPM’s chief content officer. Rebekah Sausmikat is our move-in anxiety anticipator. I’m your host, Rich Meagher. Thanks for listening.