Sarah Abubaker on Budgets and Thinking Big

Rich Meagher:

This is RVA’s Got Issues. I’m Rich Meagher. It’s early 2025. Sarah Abubaker has just been elected to the Richmond City Council, and now she’s sitting down for an orientation session with members of Mayor Danny Avula’s administration. She’s hearing a few things about the city’s budget, which Sarah is soon going to have to vote to approve or not. This is Sarah on our show last year, telling us how it went.

Sarah Abubaker:

And so they were sort of laying out the, this is gonna be really bad. Here’s the fiscal cliff, and like, this is what collective bargaining has done to us. And they went on for a while, right about that. And at some point I looked at her and I said, you’ve been talking for an hour now about your budget, and you haven’t once with two new council members asked us what our priorities are. And she looked me straight in the face and she said, I didn’t ask you what your priorities are because I have no intention of incorporating council’s priorities.

Rich Meagher:

Yikes.

Sarah Abubaker:

Something to that gist, right?

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Sarah Abubaker:

Like it was, it was very much like, oh, okay, I see who you are now.

Rich Meagher:

Now we talked to the now former member of the Avula administration, Sabrina Joy-Hogg, who Sarah’s referencing here, and Sabrina characterizes that meeting very differently. But Sarah clearly came away from that meeting and the budget process overall feeling that she wasn’t getting the input she wanted and the budget was important to her. It should be. The budget is maybe the most important thing our city leadership does. It shows us where the city’s actual priorities are. The mayor, city council, bureaucrats can say they like affordable housing all they want, but if they’re not spending any money on it, well, how much do they really care? Last year, Sarah had a lot to say about the budget process, not enough of a voice for city council, not enough public input. Now we’re heading into the budget season again. The mayor will present his new budget in March, and we’re asking how are things different this year? To talk about it, we’ve invited city council’s, Sarah Abubaker, back on our show. Sarah, welcome.

Sarah Abubaker:

Thanks for having me back. Surprised to be invited back. <laugh>.

Rich Meagher:

<laugh> We did invite you back. No, of course. Uh, Sarah, we’ve had this budget system for a while. The mayor puts it together, then presents it to council, then council offers a couple of amendments and then passes it. And in the past, right, council members have typically, particularly in the first year, just kind of gone with it. Why did this seem so glaringly wrong to you last year?

Sarah Abubaker:

I mean, because I think that, you know, we’re elected for four years at a time, and so that’s only four opportunities to, to try to make change. And if I’m not doing it in my first year, then I mean, complacency only comes thereafter. So I, you know, I really felt like this isn’t rocket science to figure out how do we make a more inclusive and thoughtful budget process. So for me, it was like, when I see something that looks so logical, I kind of am like a dog, like a bone with it and just am holding onto it. Why can’t we change this? What are you saying is so hard to do? But man, um,

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Sarah Abubaker:

<laugh>, there is, uh, there is some, some culture and processes that are, you know, entrenched.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. So let’s talk about that culture process, right? ‘Cause I, I don’t even think I even understand what the scope of the problem here is and really what the actual problem is, right? So I get the sense that you’re feeling left out, but there’s gotta be more to it than just that. Right? What’s the actual effects on city residents from your perceived

Sarah Abubaker:

Yeah.

Rich Meagher:

Lack of input.

Sarah Abubaker:

Yeah. I mean, I think feeling left out feels like a, a like high school

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Sarah Abubaker:

wasn’t invited to the, you know, the…

Rich Meagher:

Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Abubaker:

…cool kid table. Um, for me as a council member and, and then my eight colleagues, we’re the closest to the people.

Rich Meagher:

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Abubaker:

And, and what the people’s priorities are. We’re, we’re deeply involved in our communities. We understand where every pothole, where every, you know, broken fence is, and we should be a part of the conversation around how do we prioritize funding to support the things that are most needed in our communities. But let’s be very clear, it’s mostly, you know, his administration that’s creating the budget. They’re doing things based on what is best for the government.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Sarah Abubaker:

Not what is best for the people. And it’s a, it’s a give and take on both. Like, you know, socking away as much money as possible so that we can keep our AAA credit score. Hear you. That is important. But if we’re not, if it’s at the cost of getting the things that are core services, right? Well then maybe we need to have a conversation. So I think it’s less about being left out and more about taking a bigger perspective and approach…

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Sarah Abubaker:

…to all of these things.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. So I, I hear what you’re saying and it’s still like when we talk about budgets, it still feels like very abstract. You’re talking about AAA bond rating, and immediately my eyes glaze over. Right?

Sarah Abubaker:

I know.

Rich Meagher:

Right? So what’s a specific example of something you felt like maybe wasn’t getting enough attention, like an issue that matters to people, whether it’s people in your district, or to just residents across the city that can get left out in a, that kind of like big picture, abstract thinking that you’re talking about?

Sarah Abubaker:

I think what I hear every day is just about how can we do the core things the city is supposed to do really, really well. And then let’s do all the other stuff. So when I talk about AAA bond rating, it is a total snooze fest.

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Sarah Abubaker:

Right? Um, but, but it’s, it’s important because that’s basically the city’s credit score and how we are able to borrow money. And so again, that is, that is important, but it is not impacting the, right now for a lot of citizens. What is impacting the right now for a lot of citizens is, Hey, I got an $8,000 water bill and I’ve had that water bill for three months now and it’s really stressing me out. One, why do I have it?

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Sarah Abubaker:

Two, why is it taking three months to get it resolved? Three, like, what are we doing about the infrastructure that’s creating misfires on the, the water meters and the readings? And so when we kind of like, we had the $22 million surplus. Well, by city law, we have to put most of that into the city’s savings bank. Why couldn’t have we have put it into the affordable housing trust fund or into the schools, or into pedestrian infrastructure? Maybe at some point we need to say, okay, we’ve got enough in the city savings account. Let’s, let’s focus on like the one-time things we can do that will have impact on the day-to-day lives of Richmonders.

Rich Meagher:

So you are saying that when the decision is made, we’re gonna take the money and we’re gonna put it in savings as opposed to spending it on fixing people’s water bills. You guys, city council don’t have input on that prioritizing as much as you’d like. Like you want to help direct the city. No, let’s prioritize the water bills over the bond rating. Is that what you’re saying?

Sarah Abubaker:

Yeah, and I mean, I think from like upfront, right? Because again, the surplus by city code, we have to put it in a certain percentage of it has to go into the city savings account. So, you know, that’s not, we don’t get, like, that’s not a, a lack of input thing, right? I mean, we could change the code, but we wouldn’t have had the surplus if we had budgeted differently.

Rich Meagher:

Mm-hmm. So we talked to a representative from the Avula administration, and they said that last year you did have opportunities for input that the, the bad vibes meeting you described in, in our intro from, from our last meeting, you know, that bad vibes meeting was just an overview that at some point you did have a chance to review the priorities for the fourth district. Did it not seem that way to you last year?

Sarah Abubaker:

So, I mean, yes, there was a, there was a meeting where, you know, you go through, they say, okay, what do you wanna, like, what’s in the fourth district? So first off, I think again, like the system is broken because the fact that they come and they say, what are your fourth district priorities? Sure, I might have some, but if we’re doing this thing right, the question is what is your vision for the city and what is your priorities for the city versus fourth district? We’ve got this, like, this very scarcity mentality of like, okay, I know I have this tiny little pot of money. Maybe if maybe if in the good grace of the Avula administration, they give me, you know, a half million dollars, I can ask for more sidewalks or I can ask for more funding for my community center. And so you become myopic in how you are thinking about the problems that are way bigger than just your tiny patch of grass that you, you know, that you are representing.

Rich Meagher:

There is a structural point here though, right? That, that you do represent the fourth district.

Sarah Abubaker:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Rich Meagher:

You are a legislator who’s elected from a district to represent that district, whereas the mayor almost by design, is supposed to have more of that bigger picture sense. So isn’t that the mayor’s job to articulate that vision for the city and for you to kind of tailor it or connect it to your district? Are are you asking to, to take on the mayor’s job as well as your own?

Sarah Abubaker:

Oh gosh, no.

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Sarah Abubaker:

<laugh>, no. But I mean, if we’re being honest, the one, this structure of government is not that old. It’s 20 years old. Right?

Rich Meagher:

Right.

Sarah Abubaker:

I’m not quite sure the experiment is working. Um, and I, I don’t think that, again, that as a representative of one district, yes, of course I should be, and I, and I do, I advocate and I prioritize the things for my people in my district. But if I’m just doing that, then I’ve, I’ve failed my people no matter what

Rich Meagher:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Sarah Abubaker:

Right? Because if I’m just worried about the, the sidewalks and the parks and the fourth district, and I’m not concerned about how the finance department works, then at some point that’s gonna trickle down and impact my people.

Rich Meagher:

You’re saying like, you want a chance to look at a draft budget and say, I as city council member, or we as the city council think that you’ve got something wrong here? Is that what we’re looking at?

Sarah Abubaker:

Yeah. I mean, I don’t think it’s, you’ve got something wrong here.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Sarah Abubaker:

It’s, it’s, tell me where we’re heading, right? And what do you see as the, the key investment points this year, and what does that look like in actual figures from, from last year? Like, let’s use affordable housing as an example, right? Because that’s a big topic right now: addressing the affordable housing trust fund. I’ve <laugh> I’ve gone real deep down the rabbit hole in the last few weeks…

Rich Meagher:

Right.

Sarah Abubaker:

…on it. Um, and what I keep on saying is like, one, let’s make sure that all the members of city council and the mayor understand not just affordable housing trust fund, but all of the tools in our toolkit that we can use to address the affordable housing issue. Let’s name what the affordable housing issue is. Is it not enough units of housing in general? Is it not enough units of housing for sale? Is it not enough rental units? That information is available to us. So let’s name it, discuss it, and then let’s figure out what all the tools are, and as a body, as, as a city, determine, okay, this is how we think we can address some of these things and this is where we’re going to put resources and for X dollars, we are hoping to get this output.

Rich Meagher:

Right.

Sarah Abubaker:

Right? Those are the conversations we should be having all year round so that when we get to the budget, it’s really about, okay, this is what we think we need to achieve our goal. But we haven’t even named our goal yet.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. So it sounds to me like what you’re saying is that council and the mayor are kind of involved in a conversation at the surface level of, all right, we’ve got a trust fund. It’s, it’s a chunk of money that we put aside for affordable housing, but we haven’t talked about how we’re thinking about affordable housing, what that money is for, how the administration’s gonna use it, and then the specifics of how they report back. You want council to be involved in those specific decisions about what are we doing in our approach to affordable housing? Does that sound right?

Sarah Abubaker:

Yeah.

Rich Meagher:

So this does seem like, you know, we’ve been talking about the budget process, but that does seem like a bigger question about balance of power, right? Between the, the administration, the the executive branch and the legislative branch, right?

Sarah Abubaker:

Yeah.

Rich Meagher:

To go back to the political science, uh, fundamentals here. AP gov for, for all the listeners.

Sarah Abubaker:

<laugh>

Rich Meagher:

Right? The, the currently the mayor submits the budget, kind of controls the process. And it sounds to me like you, you want council to play a more meaningful role in, in the governance of the city. Does that sound right?

Sarah Abubaker:

Gosh, that sounds so rev… You sound like a revolutionary, Rich.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Sarah Abubaker:

I mean, shocking.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s not possible, you know, so you seem to be suggesting that some in some way, it’s almost like the processes force you into this kind of district only thinking.

Sarah Abubaker:

Yeah.

Rich Meagher:

Um, but are, is city council like the body, the people, are they ready to think big picture or are, is everybody just still too focused on their districts?

Sarah Abubaker:

I definitely think that there is a movement towards people wanting to think big picture. And I think that with, you know, such a large portion of council being new, basically all the new people are coming in with that approach. And I think the people who have been there for a long time want that approach, but because they’ve been a part of this system that hasn’t allowed that for so long, they’re sort of like, oh, bless your heart. Like, you know…

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Sarah Abubaker:

…you too will get, you know, still your, your hopes and dreams will get stomped down too. But I can see it when I talk to them and I know that they are very interested in, you know, being a, like, having that larger role. So I, I do think it’s entirely possible. It’s a matter of political will for both the administration and council to be able to do that.

Rich Meagher:

So you mentioned earlier that you think that you, you’re a little skeptical about how the, the whole strong mayor experiment is going over the last 20 years. And I know that’s not about the people so much as it is about the structure, right? There was a charter change commission a couple years ago that suggested that maybe we should eliminate that direct election of the mayor. Do you think that would help this kind of balance issue that you’re talking about?

Sarah Abubaker:

Yeah, I do. Um, <laugh>.

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Sarah Abubaker:

Just to kinda simply put, yeah, I do. I think, um, if the CAO and the administrations feel that they only report to the mayor,

Rich Meagher:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Sarah Abubaker:

then they only have to satisfy one person. And while that may feel efficient, um, and good for them, I, I think it, it can be problematic, right? For, for the city as a whole, because while like part of the legislative branch sort of its nature is to be messy and to have these, these conversations and this, this debate, um, it’s also what makes the legislative branch really strong. Um, and so in my mind, we should stop dividing that power and again, come to like a singular focus as an institution.

Rich Meagher:

We’ll hear more from the Richmond City Council’s Sarah Abubaker and maybe administer an AP gov exam, when we come back on RVA’s Got Issues.

This is RVA’s Got Issues. We’re talking with Sarah Abubaker, who represents the fourth district on Richmond’s City Council. So Sarah, let’s look at this another way. I often see people blaming Richmond, especially city government, for things that are the same everywhere, right?

Sarah Abubaker:

Yeah.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah, we were just talking about the recent ice storm.

Sarah Abubaker:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Rich Meagher:

You know, and, and I know city residents are up in arms about this, but if you go just outside the city to any of the counties, you’ll see it’s just as bad out there.

Sarah Abubaker:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Rich Meagher:

I’m wondering if budgeting is like this too, right? Wherever you do budgets, public, private, you know, it’s often just based on tweaking last year, what did we do last year? How much extra money do we have? How much do we have to cut? And let’s just switch some stuff around. Like isn’t that just how budgeting works? Are, are you asking a lot from the city of Richmond that we, we don’t necessarily ask from anybody else?

Sarah Abubaker:

I don’t think so. I mean, maybe, um, but again, I think that the structure of government, right? So like if you look at Henrico, they have a board of supervisors…

Rich Meagher:

Right.

Sarah Abubaker:

…and then they have a county manager, which is basically the CAO. There’s no, there’s no mayor, right? So by the very nature of that structure, the county manager has to be responsive to that board. And I’m sure that they have tensions and debates, but because there is this accountability and reporting structure, there is a sense of, as a government, as a body, um, as a, as a CAO, as a county manager, I have to be responsive…

Rich Meagher:

Right.

Sarah Abubaker:

…to my bosses.

Rich Meagher:

So I’m wondering like what that means when you actually shake it out in terms of what a new budget process or new city government’s model would look like. Uh, and I’m thinking of this term from political science. It’s called bureaucratic clientelism.

Sarah Abubaker:

Yes, yes.

Rich Meagher:

Yes. Right? You’ve, you maybe heard of this?

Sarah Abubaker:

Uh, yes.

Rich Meagher:

And it’s the idea that bureaucracies create clients, right? You create a program, a government bureaucracy around it, then serves people. Those people like the program, they want the program to continue. And then now you create another program and you create another program, and then it’s like you’re creating kids, but the kids never grow up and they never leave home

Sarah Abubaker:

<laugh>

Rich Meagher:

and your house is filled with, with children. So I’m wondering if you’re thinking about this differently in terms of, of what city council and the mayor need to do together about the budget, right? Is this tough love? Do we need some kids to grow up? Do we need to push ’em out in the world? Like do we need to cut some programs and move some money around to, to meet our priorities?

Sarah Abubaker:

Yes. Yeah. I, I mean, it, it’s, you know, it’s a tough pill to swallow.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Sarah Abubaker:

And I’m, I’m sure I will get, you know, some pushback on this, but at the end of the day, budgets are getting tighter everywhere, right? Um, and, and money is finite. That’s the whole point of a budget. So if we’re not thinking about the efficacy of this, this program… Also, like, is it what the city needs right now? Maybe a program existed to address an issue 25 years ago that isn’t an issue anymore, and now we’ve got another issue, but we’ve gotta figure out how do we pull resources for that new one, right? Cities and governments should be living, breathing organisms that are evolving and changing. And some of that is, is tough love to say, Hey, that program is no longer necessary, or, Hey, that program isn’t achieving the results that we’re looking for, but we know that if we invest in this spot, we’ll get those results.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. And I mean, I know for example, the mayor talked about like the grants to nonprofits.

Sarah Abubaker:

mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Rich Meagher:

Right? That’s an area where it seemed like maybe this isn’t the most efficient use of government resources, uh, but those are a lot of beloved nonprofit groups around the city. So, um, is that the kind of tough conversation we’re gonna have here in Richmond over the next couple of years?

Sarah Abubaker:

I think so. Those nonprofits do incredible work. Um, and they do incredible work in the city and beyond, right? And so the question is, is it the city’s responsibility to, uh, to supplement the funding of those nonprofits? If those nonprofits are serving a gap that the city would serve, but the city can’t serve it as efficiently as that nonprofit, then maybe the answer is yes. But if the nonprofit is doing something that’s lovely,

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Sarah Abubaker:

but serves a region. Well one, are we having these conversations in the counties? Like for many years, Henrico and Chesterfield didn’t kick in any money for GRTC, right? Now they’re putting in some, but it’s the, you know, the lion’s share is still, still with the city.

Rich Meagher:

Right.

Sarah Abubaker:

That’s a great model of like how we’ve, we’ve sort of evolved and I think that’s happening more and more frequently, and that’s really exciting to see. Um, but we can, again, I’m, I’m constantly, um, hungry for improvement and I think we can do more.

Rich Meagher:

So lemme go back to something else that you said too, right? That there’s a sense that budgets are getting tighter. Why is that the case? Like, can we talk about why things are so tight? Like what are the factors that make it seem like we don’t have enough money to do the things that we need to do?

Sarah Abubaker:

That’s a good question. Um, because when you look at the reality of the budget, you know, it’s grown 50% in six years. Um, we’re over a billion dollars.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Sarah Abubaker:

Uh, so in some ways it feels, uh, a little counterintuitive ’cause like, God, the budget’s grown a lot, but so have expenses and, um, you know, the cost of labor is, is much higher now. And, and the cost of just materials and any kind of like capital projects we’re doing is, you know, those are way, way more expensive. It’s sort of the thing that everybody sees in their households.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Sarah Abubaker:

Which is like, I might get a raise, but the cost of going to Kroger has eaten that raise up.

Rich Meagher:

But we also have a couple other things going on. Right? There is this surplus from last year.

Sarah Abubaker:

Yeah.

Rich Meagher:

Um, you and a couple other council members were pushing for the mayor to consider reducing the property tax rate. That’s where a lot of the city’s revenues come from, from property owners paying taxes to the city like that would suggest that maybe we have enough money, or at least we have enough money to give some back to residents. But at least the argument is you were looking to try to reduce the increase in property taxes that people pay.

Sarah Abubaker:

Yeah.

Rich Meagher:

And the mayor suggested this wasn’t a good time to do that. Does that sound accurate for this year?

Sarah Abubaker:

That, and, and I would say that, um, just because it’s standard operating procedure doesn’t mean that that’s how we should, you know?

Rich Meagher:

Right.

Sarah Abubaker:

Like, how we always do things is not what we were elected to do. We were elected to, to improve things.

Rich Meagher:

So, I mean, this gets at a bigger, even bigger picture question. Right. We started with the budget, we’re talking about governance, but I, I wonder if this is like a, a problem in Richmond writ large. Right? Which is the problem isn’t so much the process, although you wanna fix that. The problem isn’t the structure, it’s the vision. Right? And this is the real big question I wanted to ask you. Do, do we have a problem with vision in Richmond? Do we have a problem with thinking big either in the government or elsewhere?

Sarah Abubaker:

I mean, I think everybody has a problem…

Rich Meagher:

<laugh>

Sarah Abubaker:

…with thinking big and, and I don’t even presume to be the person that has the, the solution to that. Right? Like, these are really tough questions and the city and all, you know, municipalities are having really hard conversations around these questions. So I don’t think it’s that like Richmond is unique in this. I think everybody’s struggling with this. What I’ll go back to is like, let’s name that we’re struggling with it, and then let’s just try to do it a little bit better. Right? Like, I just, I know it can be done better. I, I truly believe in, in government and how it can serve the people and, and help the people.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Sarah Abubaker:

If I wasn’t, if I didn’t believe that I wouldn’t be in this. So it is incumbent upon me to pull every lever and to like use my last breath to figure out how to, how to make it better. And if I stop doing that, then I’m gonna get out of office.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah. So this is what Danny Avula, the mayor, is supposedly done with this mayoral action plan, right? That’s supposed to lay out his vision, right? Presumably including his approach to these different policy problems, right? The, the mayoral action plan has these pillars of what a city looks like, and also how to hold him and his administration accountable. So do you see a vision there or is this more a bunch of little things stitched together in, in the same document?

Sarah Abubaker:

I, I, I mean, I do think that there is a vision there. I mean, I, I, I commend the mayor for, for putting that together so quickly in his first year. Again, where I, I see kind of the history of this. Like every mayor has had some sort of mayoral action plan.

Rich Meagher:

Well, with Levar Stoney, he had a couple.

Sarah Abubaker:

Right? Right.

Rich Meagher:

Seem like one every couple years.

Sarah Abubaker:

And so the, the question is right, like in nonprofits and in in governments, like you could have strategic plans, but if they sit on the shelf and we’re not measuring against those to see if we’re actually in, like, owning when we, we missed our mark or saying, Hey, we like kill, we knocked it outta the park for this one.

Rich Meagher:

Right.

Sarah Abubaker:

So only time will tell. Right. But to me, yes. Like the mayor set a vision and that is awesome. Let’s see the implementation of that vision.

Rich Meagher:

This is, this is not necessarily a, a tear down effort on your part, right? You, you actually think this is a, a you’re, you’re offering positive contributions to the process.

Sarah Abubaker:

Yeah. I love my city and it’s my responsibility in the trust that was given to me by my people to, to ask the city to do the work.

Rich Meagher:

Sarah Abubaker represents the fourth district on the Richmond City Council. Sarah, thanks so much.

Sarah Abubaker:

Thank you.

Rich Meagher:

Listeners, if you want to weigh in on the city budget, there will be a Public town hall on Saturday, February 28th. For more details, see RVA.gov. That’s our show. Thanks to our guest, Sarah Abubaker. Tell us about your issues by visiting our website, RVAsGotissues.vpm.org, or send us an email at [email protected]. Be sure to leave a review on your favorite podcasting platform. RVA’s Got Issues is produced by Max Wasserman and Rachel Dwyer. Script editing on this episode by Nicki Stein. Audio mix by Steve Lack. Our theme music was composed by Alexander Hitchens. Shawn Freude is our executive producer. Steve Humble is VPM’s Chief Content Officer. Rebekah Sausmikat is our chief episode naming officer. I’m your host, Rich Meagher. Thanks for listening.