The Future of Gilpin Court

Rich Meagher:

Welcome to RVAs Got Issues. I’m your host, Rich Meagher. Richmond, like pretty much the rest of the country, is in a housing crisis. It’s hard for anyone to find an affordable home these days, but the housing crunch is particularly hard for low income residents. Traditionally, we’ve created local government bodies or housing authorities that use federal funding to provide homes for these folks, what we call public housing. And in Richmond, that’s the courts. You probably have heard of the big six courts with names like Whitcomb, Mosby, Creighton, designed as temporary residences starting in the 1940s, They’ve become the permanent housing of last resort for people with nowhere else to go. These kinds of projects are criticized for concentrating poverty with all the problems that come with it, like drugs and crime, but they’re also vibrant communities with long histories. Last season on this show, we brought on the CEO of Richmond’s local housing authority, Steven Nesmith, to talk about what’s being done to transform the courts into mixed income communities.

Steven Nesmith:

We’re going to end public housing as we know it now in the city of Richmond.

Rich Meagher:

Nesmith and the Housing Authority are already moving forward on Creighton Court, knocking down buildings and moving residents out. Up next, they want to redevelop the largest of the city’s public housing communities, Gilpin Court. But those plans have raised questions. Questions from members of city council.

Kenya Gibson:

The law is very clear that before the RHA has the authority to be able to go into an agreement, our body needed to vote in support of that. And that did not happen.

Rich Meagher:

And questions from Gilpin Court residence.

Resident #1:

This is the last stop. There’s no other stop. So they’re more afraid to lose their home.

Resident #2:

When I’m talking about my home and the place I got to live in until my last dying days, I want to make sure it’s going to be all right.

Rich Meagher:

What’s going on in Gilpin Court? Why is Richmond City Council getting involved? And in light of all the changes from the federal government, can Richmond’s Housing Authority stay on its current course? Steven, welcome back.

Steven Nesmith:

Thank you for having me.

Rich Meagher:

So, Steven, when you were on our show before, you said you’re gonna end public housing as we know it. How’s it going?

Steven Nesmith:

Well, we’re on the path. It’s a journey. That journey requires partnership. And it’s not like the old days where there were a bunch of federal dollars around. For the last 20 years, 25 years, uh, in Washington DC both political parties have been getting out of funding public housing. And so the new way to demolish and redevelop new affordable housing has been through creating public private partnerships to attract private developers through tax credit and other incentives to partner with local housing authorities, to create an opportunity for folks to move from public housing to self-sufficiency. And then we can bring others off the waiting list into that safety net.

Rich Meagher:

And so you are also moving forward with these ambitious plans to redevelop Gilpin Court in Jackson Ward. And I wanna unpack this project a little bit. Why Gilpin next?

Steven Nesmith:

Because Gilpin has the oldest infrastructure from Miami all the way up to Vermont. That’s a fact. The result of that is that when we pour money to fix the buildings with our work orders, the moment we fix it, it breaks. It’s like taking a Mercedes-Benz engine and put in a 1930 car. It’s gonna break really quickly. And so from a capital and funding, it eats at our capital. And we don’t get enough money from DC for capital expenses.

Rich Meagher:

So currently, to redevelop it, right, the the Housing Authority, the Richmond Redevelopment Housing Authority owns Gilpin Court, right? It owns the buildings and the land. Now, you’d originally planned to transfer the land to a separate nonprofit, this Richmond Development Corporation, the RDC. Why did you want to do that?

Steven Nesmith:

It is the best way to attract private capital in a public private partnership. RRHA is not a 5 0 1 C3. The only way in which we can attract capital is through a 5 0 1 C3. We’ve got a list of probably about 59 targets that are in the foundation, philanthropic space and other private sector developers that we’re gonna be going out on the road and making a pitch and talk, talking about the story of Gilpin, the original, uh, Harlem of the South before it was in New York City, right? And talking about that history and talking about the larger piece of the city of Richmond that convinced those investors to invest. So the 5 0 1 C3, the Richmond Development Corporation is the entity that can receive those dollars otherwise to develop without that, we’re talking, what, 50 years? And we, we can’t wait that long.

Rich Meagher:

So you need to kind of move the ownership structure a little bit just so you can attract this outside investment to just to generate enough money to do it. Now, my understanding is these plans might have changed a bit from, instead of transferring the land over to this corporation, now you’re gonna lease it out so that RHA still holds onto the land.

Steven Nesmith:

That’s correct. And that’s important because in April this year, when we took our proposal to our Board of Commissioners and we lost by one vote, then the thinking was we would transfer gilpen as a whole into the 5 0 1 C3.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah,

Steven Nesmith:

I think I understand people are wary or suspicious of private entities. But since that vote, we’ve been listening, we’ve been learning, we have been integrating ideas and trying to build more consensus. We’re now going to apply for what’s called a Section 18 application Send it to HUD, to lock in tenant protection vouchers for all the residents for relocation. Then we wanna say, let’s step back. And now the new plan is there are 10 phases of the redevelopment,

Rich Meagher:

Right?

Steven Nesmith:

When we transfer it phase by phase, we will do it through what’s called a ground lease. And when you do it, the transfer phase by phase through a ground lease, RRHA maintains title, that means RHA. It stays in the public. And that’s the the big, big difference.

Rich Meagher:

It sounds to me like you are gonna try to swing for the fences, right? Make this land transfer happen to the RDC and track all this big investment. You listen to concerns. And so now you’re maybe gonna break it down a little bit smaller, do it a step at a time, hit a single, but also in this way, RHA, the public body still maintains control over the land through the process.

Steven Nesmith:

Yes, sir.

Rich Meagher:

And do you feel like you can still do the fundraising that you wanted to do with this newer proposal?

Steven Nesmith:

Not as quickly. That’s just the fact of the matter. I think with this slower pace, we won’t be able to raise the money as fast. And then I say, well, how can we do, as I huddled with my team and came up with the RHA Moonshot initiative, what the Moonshot Initiative does is say that those 10 faces are gonna take, let’s say 10, 15 years to complete or more. So if I get my voucher, I may not wanna wait for 10, 15 years. I wanna take my tenant protection voucher, which I know wherever I go, if it’s Hillside, Henrico or Texas, I’ll be locked in. I will not pay more than 30% of my income. But what are you gonna do for me between now and 15 years? And so with the Moonshot Initiative, while the development’s going on, the moonshot proposal looks to address the issue of the following, to move public housing residents to self-sufficiency.

It talks about, uh, creating job training and moving towards livable jobs. It also, uh, address small business opportunities. So what we want is for a young public housing person who goes to J Sargeant Reynolds, uh, community college, say, you know, I just got out and I got a business, uh, degree. I don’t know how to write a business plan. We’re gonna teach that person to write a business proposal, go after the grass cutting contract and bring his buddies along and say, let’s get jobs. And last to address mental health healthcare disparities. Because one gentleman saw me at Moses, Mr. Nesmith, I heard you had a pilot program, some free job training. He said, you know, half the time I can’t even get out the bed or out the chair you know, I’ve got some issues. And so we want to help that part up too.

Rich Meagher:

So this sounds, it sounds great, right? This idea of kinda like wrap around more supports for people in the residents while you’re waiting for the redevelopment to progress along. Are you gonna be able to make the sale if the pitch is instead, well, we need a little less money for this, but we also need money for these supports. Like, can you make the sale if it’s not just like, write me a big check and we’re gonna build something big.

Steven Nesmith:

You have to go to a different type of investor, social impact investor. Those are investors who are saying, I’m not looking for the rate of return that you typically see on Wall Street. Then we have to go to philanthropic organizations and foundations. We were originally looking at high net worth individuals and says, I’ll put my granddaughter name on that and I’ll give you, and I, you know, we were thinking big that way, but now we have to go to a different set of investors.

Rich Meagher:

So your board voted against the property transfer earlier this spring. You’ve got another vote coming right up. Are you confident of a yes? Are they behind your plan?

Steven Nesmith:

Well, I can tell you this. The feedback we’ve got is that they’re happy that we’re taking a step back and that we’re taking it in smaller bites. Submit the section 18 application, lock in the funding, and then let’s, by phase by phase have the conversation that is being not only favorably received by our board members. I’ve had, I’m proud to say, a really positive conversation with Councilwoman Kenya Gibson. And with the leadership of President Newbille, she brought us all to the table with Mayor Avula and his team. And, uh, it was a very, very constructive conversation about how we can not only now redevelop Gilpin, but in the larger context of Jackson Ward. And so I know that that’s a big thing for Mayor Avula. And then what President Newbille said, she said, Mr. Nesmith, it is just not about Gilpin Court. Whatever decisions and compromises we come to, it has to apply to all the big six. So, um, I can only say like when I was in, uh, professional basketball player, I’m confident, but I can’t tell you until the ball goes through the hoop.

Rich Meagher:

We’ll hear more about how you’re addressing city council’s concerns. When we come back on RVAs Got Issues. We’re back with Steven Nesmith, the CEO of the Richmond Redevelopment and Housing Authority. Now, you have had some concerns raised by members of City council. You said you’ve since talked to those folks, but there was a time not that long ago, right? The councilwoman Kenya Gibson argued that you didn’t have the authority to move forward with a developer agreement without city council approval. And you called that, I think, misinformation in a news release. Why was that misunderstood?

Steven Nesmith:

I said it was a misunderstanding because as a lawyer, when I read the statute, when we go out and redevelop, ’cause as you know, as you rightly said, we’re a public housing authority, but we’re also a redevelopment authority when we go out and redevelop city property like we did with the Coliseum with the city. We unmistakably have to get city council approval. The statue read that when we are redeveloping federally HUD owned property, that it’s not as clear, okay? Because we own that land. I made the decision that I didn’t want to say who’s got the best lawyer. My role as CEO is to figure out what’s the grand bargain? How do you bring compromise? And so I think that’s what we did recently by saying, rather than saying whose interpretation of law is the best or clearer, how can we come to a compromise? I think that’s where we’re gonna be soon.

Rich Meagher:

And so another thing that Kenya Gibson did was she had introduced legislation to modify how RRHA works, you know, more accountability changes to the bylaws, the board, public meetings, communication. Do you oppose any of these changes? Are you talking to Kenya Gibson about implementing them? Or do you expect that she might drop these changes?

Steven Nesmith:

So first I start by saying, we’ve been listening, we’ve been learning, we’ve been integrating feedback to build consensus. That’s our humble theme. And yes, some of the things that she had that you refer to, we’ve began doing. Alright, let me give some specific examples. We believe after listening and learning, that resident voices need to be at the table in a more substantive way. So the Board of Commissioners recently voted that one of the Board of Commissioners sits on the RDC board for accountability. Second, the board of commissioners will be, uh, appointing a resident to the RDC board with voting rights.

Rich Meagher:

Hmm. So that a resident of public housing will be making decisions with the other board members about public housing.

Steven Nesmith:

You got it. And then I, I can break some news on your show if you want me to.

Rich Meagher:

No, we love that.

Steven Nesmith:

Okay. And so here’s the breaking news. I’m contemplating putting together a resident advisory committee, and we’re gonna figure out how we get those, those resident voices and what that committee looks like. And that committee will be making recommendations to both the RDC Board and the Board of Commissions that’s new and different.

Rich Meagher:

So the idea here would be to have a kind of formal voice for residents, a committee that residents could come to and then would come to you folks. I imagine that residents will be encouraged by that, but there’s still some suspicion, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And we’ve heard that in public meetings. And there was that incident a couple of months ago. The RTD reported that the RHA had actually contracted with

Steven Nesmith:

Yes.

Rich Meagher:

An organization to pay residents

Steven Nesmith:

Absolutely.

Rich Meagher:

To come to a city council meeting. So you can understand, right, some skepticism from both residents and others about like how enthusiastic residents might be about this redevelopment.

Steven Nesmith:

Yeah. I think one of the reasons why Richmond has not moved forward in a better way and a quicker way with redevelopment when all the other housing authorities in the Commonwealth are way ahead, Richmond, there’s been a lot of skepticism, particularly in Richmond around whether or not RRHA is doing the best things for the residents. I do understand the issue where we hired a nonprofit, nonprofit, said, Mr. Nesmith, I think you’ve gotta provide some of these public housing resident incentives, you know, to come to meetings. So that was a mistake, I think, and it’s no question about that. You know, what we’re doing now? We’re doing people power. We’re doing resident power. So the meeting that we just had last week at Great Memorial Baptist Church, we are now empowering our Department of Resident Services knocking on doors old fashioned way.

Rich Meagher:

Right.

Steven Nesmith:

Putting [unintelligable], come out and hearing the express your voices pro or con. And we think we want to hear con voices that are skepticism because that’s how we get better. And so, I understand the distrust, but give us a chance. Just give us a chance. And I’m being really serious about that because what we cannot do is keep the status quo. When I go and I go in the Gilpin and the other public housing, I’d look at that and I was like, they’re living in concrete and cinder block. That’s immoral.

Rich Meagher:

Yeah.

Steven Nesmith:

And we have a responsibility, and I’m, I’m gonna stay at it in terms of the community conversations, but try to regain some of that trust. And guess what, it’s okay if someone comes to a community meeting and get loud because it’s been boiling up. Yeah. So we’re not gonna say that person shouldn’t do that, but we just gotta listen.

Rich Meagher:

You’re inviting people to come yell at you if they want to.

Steven Nesmith:

Yeah. And that’s something else.

Rich Meagher:

So you’re not going to rebuild the same number of units in Gilpin. Right. You are committed to finding housing for everybody there. But housing vouchers play a, a big role in this. Like you talked about the plan, we’re gonna apply for these HUD vouchers, right? To make sure that everybody’s locked in. Eventually they’ve got a place to be. Cutting funding for vouchers. Right? What’s gonna happen to these folks? Can we really count on this stream of vouchers in the way that we have in the past?

Steven Nesmith:

Right. There’s 781 units. At our development plan, we’re gonna build more. We’re going on to actually build about 1300 units. And what is that breakout gonna look like? It’s gonna be about 449, which is gonna be severely subsidized. You call that the public housing tranche, if you will. Then you have another group, which you would call workforce low income housing tax credit. Those are subsidized also. That’s about 80% of the average meaning income. But that’s still workforce. That’s still affordable.

Rich Meagher:

Right?

Steven Nesmith:

Then the last third in the mixed is gonna be, uh, market rate. There’s gonna be some home ownership in there as well. But let’s talk about this other piece about federal funding cutting. And how do you think you’re gonna get those vouchers? Well, as you mentioned, one of the reasons why we went for the fences and really wanna do something big in bold in April, because we know all the craziness that’s going on in DC.

Rich Meagher:

Right.

Steven Nesmith:

And the longer we wait. And so we said, let’s get in line, because other public housing authorities in the Commonwealth of Virginia and across the country, they’re submitting their section 18 application. And once you submit and you get it, it’s locked in. Tenant protection voucher has its own separate funding. But you gotta get in there. So we said

Rich Meagher:

it’s, it’s locked in. But let me, lemme just push on that.

Steven Nesmith:

Sure.

Rich Meagher:

Are we sure that anything is still locked in with this administration that has rescinded funding for things it’s already committed to

Steven Nesmith:

With everything that’s going on in Washington DC, nothing is a guarantee, but what we do know, we want to make sure we get our ask, uh, requested at the table. We do recognize, as you made a good point, nothing is for sure. That is why you need our nonprofit, the Richmond Development Corporation. That’s the secret key is with that arm we’re going to attract under public private partnership additional funding. Let’s look at the scenario. If we don’t get the vouchers, how are we gonna move forward? We’re gonna move forward by leveraging the RDC, attracting private capital. So that’s our fallback plan.

Rich Meagher:

I know that you also had some funding cuts this year. A million dollars cut. And in part because you didn’t spend money from last year because you couldn’t find enough landlords to take vouchers. So how do you get more landlords to take the vouchers if you do get those vouchers in?

Steven Nesmith:

We just came up with a landlord incentive program.

Rich Meagher:

Okay.

Steven Nesmith:

Where we’re actually providing a modest financial incentive for landlords to take our vouchers. Then also, we’re providing a financial incentive for those voucher holders so they don’t have to pay application fees and those other fees to make a marriage. And we’re holding several of these landlord and voucher holder marriage sessions, if you will. We’re inviting the landlords to come in and see if a marriage can come. The other thing though, and I’ve said this before, we know landlords say, you know, we don’t want those people coming. And we are gonna be working to ensure that we’re gonna identify where those landlords are discriminating. So we’re gonna tell on them, so to speak. And it’s, it’s important,

Rich Meagher:

The carrot and the stick.

Steven Nesmith:

Yeah.

Rich Meagher:

But there’s a long, long waiting list for vouchers. Right. If the federal government cuts these vouchers, the funding for it, are these folks outta luck? Right? How do they get off the waiting list? What can you do?

Steven Nesmith:

That’s a problem. Because I have to say that when the federal government HUD said that they were going to reduce the funding for vouchers, we had to make a defunding decision. We were not going to issue new vouchers. We had to be smart.

Rich Meagher:

Right.

Steven Nesmith:

But we say that all the vouchers that we have on the street where people are looking, we’re gonna fully fund all those because we didn’t want to give people false hope. Now we’re going to have to find different ways, creative ways to find funding to do what we do. And I know it may seem like I’m, I’m just singing that old song, but we’re gonna have to come look at the Richmond Development Corporation nonprofit as a way to attract funding, not federal funding. ’cause here’s the deal, and we, I gotta say this, 80% of funding comes from the federal government. No one should run their business that way on one funder. As the federal government is reducing the funding, we’re moving to a new business model. That business model is that we’re gonna be relying on the balance sheet of RRHA to support what you see. Armstrong Renaissance, that’s what it’s gonna look like.

Rich Meagher:

Which is like mixed use development, right? The private public partnerships that you’re talking about.

Steven Nesmith:

Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know what someone said to me, Mr. Nesmith, you know, white people ain’t going invest in black people. What are you talking about? I’m like, well, the fact of the matter is, you’ve gotta go after some people who are really interested, investors and those who are not looking for the normal rate of returns. Some people love their money, other people want to deploy their money for good.

Rich Meagher:

Now, I just wanna kind of put this all together here, right? Because this plan is very ambitious. I mean, you, you sound very optimistic. You’re gonna be able to raise money and relocate and move things and get these vouchers. But how do we know that you’re gonna do that? Like, how are you actually gonna make that happen at the RHA?

Steven Nesmith:

Right. So there’s an old expression in the budget world and in politics, and it’s, uh, show me your budget and I’ll tell you what your policies are and what you stand for.

Rich Meagher:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Steven Nesmith:

So in order for us to do this, we’re gonna need partners. And one of the biggest partners is we’re gonna need city Council to look at its budget. We are gonna need the mayor, we’re gonna need all of our other partners, because again, we cannot do it alone. And that is so, so important. If you look at some examples in other cities where some mayors or city councils are saying, we got five economic development projects going on, we’re gonna do one less and we’re gonna take that pot of money and we’re gonna take that, call it a hundred million and we’re gonna put it on the table and we’re gonna then challenge the corporate community to match it because we cannot do it alone.

Rich Meagher:

So the message here would be to these other public officials, community advocates, anybody. Right? It’s fine if you want us to do more for public housing, but they’re gonna have to put their money where their mouth is basically.

Steven Nesmith:

Yes. Today we had a Zoom meeting with all the stakeholders who were originally in the more than 18 months of community meetings. And a resident said something to me that shocked me. She said, Mr. Nesmith, can a resident help you in finding people that want to invest in and make Public Ambassador? I’m like, yes. That’s what I said. I wanna work with you. I was just so heartened by this resident. She said, can I help you? I said, every dollar counts. But then that’s where the rubber meets the road. I we can’t do it by ourself. We need that resident. We need partners and the big partners. Show me your budget and what you’ve allocated towards it. Now, I’ll tell you what you really care about.

Rich Meagher:

Now, you said before we got on mic here that you’ve gonna have some good news coming very shortly, right? What is that good news?

Steven Nesmith:

Yeah. I hope everyone comes out September 16th, Creighton Court. It’s gonna be a really teary eyed moment because we are gonna be handing keys to both former Creighton Court residents who used to live there with RRHA voucher holders. And we’re gonna have also a segment of those who are just part to tackle the overall affordable housing crisis in the city. That’s gonna be a really good moment because one of my bosses and my boss on the Board of Commissioners Nesmith you are doing great things, but until you put keys in someone’s hands, you haven’t done anything. And believe me, I get up early in the morning, I stay late. I say, okay, it’s gonna be a big day. And you know what it’s gonna be. It’s gonna be a day for partnership because we couldn’t have done it without City Council, without the mayor, without Virginia Housing, without the state housing community development. And guess what? We couldn’t have done it without the community activists saying, come on, Nesmith, come on team, and do it. So it takes everyone. It’s gonna be a big day.

Rich Meagher:

Steven Nesmith is CEO of the Richmond Redevelopment and Housing Authority. Thanks for being here, Steven.

Steven Nesmith:

Thank you.

Rich Meagher:

That’s our show. Thanks to our guest, Steven Nesmith. Tell us about your issues by visiting our website, RVAsGotIssues.vpm.org, or send us an email at [email protected]. Leave a review on your favorite podcasting platform. RVAs Got Issues is produced by Max Wasserman and Rachel Dwyer. Script editing on this episode by Nicki Stein. Audio mix by Steve Lack. Our theme music was composed by Alexander Hitchens. Sean Freude is our executive producer. Steve Humble is VP’s Chief Content Officer. I’m your host, Rich Meagher. Thanks for listening.