Addiction to Evictions

Rich Meagher: Welcome to RVAs. Got Issues, the show that brings you the people and ideas that are reshaping Greater Richmond. I’m your host. Rich Meagher evictions seem like a pretty simple issue. Renters should pay their rent when they don’t. They need to leave, but the realities of renting and leaving are a little more complicated than that.

Today we’re sitting down with a housing and evictions expert, and then later a pro bono lawyer who works on eviction cases. To learn why evictions are actually a serious problem for all of us in RVA and how we might kick our addiction to evictions. To talk about this, we have VCU Professor Ben Theresa, who directs the RVA eviction lab there.

Ben. Thanks for being here.

Ben Teresa: Thanks so much for having me, rich.

Rich Meagher: So Ben, let’s start here, right? An eviction, it starts when the tenant stops paying rent. The landlord sues them to either get their money or get the tenant out, or both. It sounds like this is especially common in Richmond, but just how common is it?

Richmond in 2023 had over 13,000 eviction filings. So you’re talking about one out of every three, almost renters who are threatened what we call or threatened with eviction or that are filed on, wait, it’s just, let’s say that again. There’s 13,000 in one year in a city that only has something like 220,000 people living in it. Right, right. So that’s a lot. That is a lot. So you’re saying that’s a. Third of renters in the city. Yes,

Ben Teresa: it’s, it’s, uh, you know, it fluctuates, but anywhere, um, from 20 to 30% depending on the year, the context in terms of just the number of eviction filings. So those are lawsuits initiated, which again, doesn’t tell you what happened at the end.

Many of those people perhaps were able to stay, but we should recognize that that. Number certainly represents everyone who is threatened with housing instability.

Rich Meagher: So that seems like a pretty high number. Right, and that is, I’m guessing high compared to other places.

Ben Teresa: I, I, I think that’s right. You know, I think that these rankings get a lot of attention.

So that was what kind of put Richmond and Virginia on the map, so to speak, in a bad way in 2018. April of 2018, the front page of the New York Times when the Princeton Eviction Lab released the first real national data set of eviction,

News Archival: looked at more than 80 million eviction records going back to 2000 and revealed in 2016 alone, there were nearly four evictions filed.

Every minute more than 6,300 Americans were evicted every day.

Ben Teresa: Actually, five out of the top 10 cities, highest evicting cities or filing cities, um, were in Virginia. The Princeton eviction lab and New York Times revealed that Richmond had five times the national eviction rate based on court filings.

Rich Meagher: Yeah. So why is that the case? Like is there something about Virginia’s eviction process that is driving these numbers?

Ben Teresa: We’ve done a lot of research into what actually happens in eviction court, and these are very quick proceedings. So the one thing to understand about eviction court, at least in the Virginia context, is that it is a summary proceeding.

Which means it doesn’t have all of the protections and features and characteristics of a traditional, even other civil hearings or criminal hearings. Of course, the biggest difference between criminal and civil court is that in civil court, there is no guarantee to an attorney or representation, and so almost always.

With very few exceptions. In most courts in Virginia, tenants are not represented. That is, they do not have an attorney with them when, if they appear in court,

Rich Meagher: and I’m guessing the landlords usually do have an attorney representing them on their side.

Ben Teresa: Much more often, depending on the jurisdiction, you’ll have upwards of 70% or in the more urban kind of professionalized markets where landlords are more professionalized, you’ll get almost all landlords represented.

What else is different about these cases? When we talk about a summary proceeding, that means several aspects of how the court handles the case are different. First is that there’s actually a reduced standard for notification that the tenant is being sued. So you think of, uh, you know, you’ve been served kind of, kind of thing for movies, right?

Right.

Rich Meagher: Someone’s gotta like put the paper in your hand or throw it at your feet or something

Ben Teresa: like that. Yes, landlords by law have to do that, but if they can’t, for some reason, they’re allowed to just like tack it on the door eventually. And so there is a lower, and the research shows this, that the summary proceeding has a lower standard of what we.

Call service or notification of the tenant. The other thing is that the, uh, rules about introducing evidence are, uh, much different. Um, the tenant does not really have the opportunity to review the evidence that the landlord has. The summary proceeding is just simply faster. You know, the average, the mean time that an eviction hearing takes is a matter of, uh, minutes, if not under a minute.

Now that doesn’t necessarily mean that due process is compromised, but these are very, very rapid. The other important thing to note is that tenants can actually be evicted. Without being present in court, if tenants do not attend that first hearing, more likely, um, almost always is the case. The judge enters what is called a default judgment or judgment by default, and so someone can actually lose their home without.

So, so to speak, having their day in court.

Rich Meagher: So just to recap, it’s a fairly quick, and dare I say, easy process for a landlord to start an eviction, but it’s also the case that once it gets to court, it tips so much in favor of the landlord that we just kind of expect them to win. Is that right?

Ben Teresa: The summary process is designed to restore possession.

Mm-hmm. And so as one attorney said, law bends towards where the attorneys are. Day in and day out, right? Judges are hearing these cases and it’s really a way to formally reassert possession for the landlord.

Rich Meagher: And so do the judges themselves tend to adopt? I. Even without thinking it, the landlord’s position, do they take on landlord kind of model thinking when they’re approaching these cases?

Ben Teresa: I think they do, and I think there’s evidence for that. For example, uh, during Covid there was Virginia rent relief, which was to provide, uh, to pay the rental debts and keep renters housed during the pandemic. And so in this one court case, the um, landlord said, well, we’re evicting, um, the tenants because they haven’t paid the rent, but also they’re not cooperating with the rent relief program in order to receive their payment.

And these tenants happen to be represented. And so the attorney said, actually, we have the communication with. The rent relief program, and they’re still waiting on the paperwork from the landlord. Mm. And the judge says, well, I’m inclined to believe the landlord here because why would the landlord not accept free money?

Right. So actually, you’re right. The assumption was why would the landlord not participate? And, and so to side to side with the landlord, does that happen in all the cases? No. And there was incredible work by chief judges in in jurisdictions across the state who went to extra lengths during the covid, you know, so I don’t wanna paint with a broad brush here, but the things that matter are that the judge has really matter and representation really matters in these proceedings.

Rich Meagher: Ben Theresa is Associate Professor of Urban and Regional Studies and Planning at VCU and co-director of the RVA eviction lab. Thanks for being here, Ben. Thank you. As Ben said, the law bends toward landlords. But the city of Richmond is trying to bend it back at least a little bit. A new right to counsel pilot is being worked out where tenants under threat of eviction would be assigned a lawyer by the city.

For free to find out how this might work. We talk to a lawyer who already does this. We’ll hear from him when we come back on RVAs Got issues.

David Tisel works at the Richmond office of Hunton Andrews. Kurt, a national law firm. However, he holds an unusual position for this big law firm. He’s a fellow who works on some of the firm’s pro bono work, essentially work. They donate for free, focusing mostly on clients with housing issues. David, welcome.

Thank you. David. We should tell our listeners we’re meeting in your office. I joined you earlier to watch some of eviction court. Some people say, okay, sure, well, you didn’t pay your rent. You’re gonna get evicted. I mean, what do you say to someone who just has a, a very kind of black and white view of that?

You know, you don’t pay your rent, you get evicted and end of story. Why do we need to like care about that?

David Tisel: That might be true a lot of the time, and yet there’s. A lot of times where people have real defenses to their cases. There’s both substantive lawyers like to talk about, like substantive and procedural.

It’s a, it’s a way that you can like pass your law school exams, right? Use those words. So I’ll try to do that. So substantive defenses and procedural defenses where like, uh, a substantive defense might be that. Your heat is out and your property manager took away your stove last week and still haven’t brought it back.

Or you’ve had roaches for months and given them notice. They haven’t done anything

Rich Meagher: and, and by law, the landlord is supposed to maintain that kind of stuff, right? Yeah. You’re supposed to have a safe, livable environment.

David Tisel: Right, right. The Virginia Residential Landlord Tenant Act, V-R-L-T-A does provide. For certain things that if the landlord is not keeping up to, to the standard, it can be a defense to not paying your rent.

And it would be for issues, like I said before, like no heat or sort of a real, like a significant problem in the apartment.

Rich Meagher: So when you meet and talk to clients, how, how do you explain what’s happening to them and what’s going to happen to them?

David Tisel: It’s a legal interview and I’m doing two things. One is assessing.

The facts, gathering facts, seeing if there’s something that I can hang my hat on for representation. And if there’s not, then I pivot into trying to give advice. I’ve definitely had some wouldbe client interactions where I’m kind of the bearer of bad news. I’m the one explaining to them that they will be evicted because the judge didn’t necessarily say that.

Some judges are really interested in explaining what’s happening to, to folks who are unrepresented. Other judges are. More interested in efficiently getting through their dockets. So I definitely have to explain to people like, no, yeah, the sheriff is coming on this day and you have 24 hours to get your stuff out of there.

Anything that you don’t will become the landlord’s property, and it can be definitely tough to be the bearer of bad news.

Rich Meagher: I mean, we were watching court today. I sat with you, uh, watching an eviction court proceedings, and it’s complicated, right? There’s complicated language, there’s lots of documentation.

Uh, I mean, I saw a judge struggling to figure out a lease. Mm-hmm. Is there, um, a, a way that a tenant can kind of navigate their way through the process if they don’t have a lawyer?

David Tisel: So the Virginia Poverty Law Center, I believe, created a online tool. It guides you through, okay, what kind of case do you have here in certain defenses that you might have Also, you might be eligible for legal aid also our

our office represents folks who are a little bit above the legal aid cutoff, so there are, there are opportunities that to seek counsel or try to be the best lawyer for yourself that you can.

Rich Meagher: How common is it for folks facing eviction to have legal representation?

David Tisel: It’s very uncommon in Virginia and we can only fully serve and, and take a fraction of the good cases that come our way.

A lot of the time we have to give folks advice. And sort of try to tell coach them on how to be their best lawyer for themselves because we just don’t have the capacity to take every case. That is a real defense.

Rich Meagher: Yeah, and I wondered about that. When you represent a client, what your goal is. I mean, obviously your goal is to win, right?

But in a kind of more realistic sense, what in a lot of cases are you hoping to accomplish when you work with a client?

David Tisel: I’m always thinking of housing stability. That’s the goal. Sometimes that’s achieved through keeping them in their current apartment, especially when folks have subsidized housing.

Usually you really wanna try to hold onto that apartment because once you get out into the market. Rate world, it’s much harder to just stay afloat for people. So I really take into consideration when people have subsidized housing and try to take those cases. If there’s a defense for folks in market rate housing that can’t pay the rent, sometimes housing stability might actually be a move out agreement.

That’s like a settlement that. Spares their tenant record, what we call the Scarlet E Oh, eviction. The eviction. The eviction on your record makes it way harder to get another apartment. It’s a big part of the. Problem right now. A big part of the system is once, even, once you’re sued at all, then it’s on the website and the tenant screening reports start scraping that you, you can’t rent another apartment if you’ve been sued.

Basically. You might be able to for a mom and pop, but not for a big company. And so, and it’s a, becomes a chicken and the egg thing where like I’m advising people, yeah, you should probably move out ’cause you’re not gonna really be able to pay this much. If you don’t move out, like then you’re just gonna have less time to figure out what’s next.

But they’re like, oh, I can’t, everywhere I’ve applied, they’re rejecting my applications because I’ve been sued. And so that, that’s a way that our, our system is failing people right now.

Rich Meagher: So this seems like pretty tough work. Why do this, right? Why do this work? You have options, right? You probably could do some other kind of law.

So what, what brings you to this work? What keeps you in it?

David Tisel: Well, I, I’ve worked in housing for a while, since college, basically, uh, in different capacities. I managed a nonprofit housing program in Massachusetts. I worked with, um, cooperatives in DC and now I’m a tenant lawyer. And it’s not like I grew up knowing I wanted to work in housing or something.

I don’t think that many people do. Yeah. But it’s a really interesting interdisciplinary field because. Ultimately it’s about people and, uh, relationships. And then there’s also the, the feeling of being part of a team. I think even if I’m not winning every case, I’m, I’m part of the social safety net that, you know, our, our society, I.

Decided in the sixties we should have, uh, legal representation for low income people. And, you know, sort of chipped away a little bit since then, but it still exists and it’s good to be part of that team.

Rich Meagher: David Tisel is the Richmond Pro Bono fellow at the law firm Hunt Andrews Kirth. David, thanks. Thank you.

That’s our show. Thanks to our guests, Ben Teresa and David Tisel. Find out more about our show and tell us about your issues at our website, rvas.issues.vpm.org. Remember to tell your friends about us, share a social media post or leave a review on your favorite podcasting platform. RVAs Got Issues is produced by Max Wasserman and Rachel Dwyer.

Story editing by Donna Lack audio mix by Steve Lack. Our intern is Cate McKenzie. Our theme music was composed by Alexander Hitchens. Meg Lindholm is our executive producer. Steve Humble is VP’s Chief Content Officer. I’m your host, Rich Meagher. Thanks for listening.